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PostPosted: 11:30 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: legal advice?being summoned to court...*update* Reply with quote

I sold a car last year on the 2-7-2007 and have recieved a few fines for not notifying them of a change of keeper.
I sent the log book away at the time but there saying they didn't recieve it.
It states on the back of the log book that if you dont recieve a confirmation letter saying they recieved it your supposed to get in touch with them,which i didn't do.Tbh i just sent it away and as far as i was concerned that was the end of it.

Well anyway,i have just recieved a summons to court for it on the 14th of next month.
Has anyone had anything like this before that can advise me on what to do now? or should i go see a solicitor.

Thing is,i have no proof i sent it,and as far as their concerned i'm in the wrong for not letting them know i didn't recieve the confirmation letter.
I have given them the blokes name and adress that i sold the car to,but this does'nt seem to make a difference.

I've booked an apointment with a solicitor now anyway for the 24th of this month,but i'd still appreciate any opinions on what i can do?

Thanks
Dave

P.S
i'm aware this is a bike forum,but i thought i'd ask anyway.Worth a try?
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Last edited by ---- on 13:08 - 16 Oct 2008; edited 1 time in total
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Steve H
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://bp1.blogger.com/_cr9RD_gF-s4/RiipDfUKlfI/AAAAAAAAAUg/Ga0SCdRyUtY/s320/Vaseline%2520368g%2520L.jpg

Good Luck Thumbs Up
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing
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Marcg868
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Re: legal advice?being summoned to court... Reply with quote

justmetoo125 wrote:
I sold a car last year on the 2-7-2007 and have recieved a few fines for not notifying them of a change of keeper.
I sent the log book away at the time but there saying they didn't recieve it.
It states on the back of the log book that if you dont recieve a confirmation letter saying they recieved it your supposed to get in touch with them,which i didn't do.Tbh i just sent it away and as far as i was concerned that was the end of it.

Well anyway,i have just recieved a summons to court for it on the 14th of next month.
Has anyone had anything like this before that can advise me on what to do now? or should i go see a solicitor.

Thing is,i have no proof i sent it,and as far as their concerned i'm in the wrong for not letting them know i didn't recieve the confirmation letter.
I have given them the blokes name and adress that i sold the car to,but this does'nt seem to make a difference.

I've booked an apointment with a solicitor now anyway for the 24th of this month,but i'd still appreciate any opinions on what i can do?

Thanks
Dave

P.S
i'm aware this is a bike forum,but i thought i'd ask anyway.Worth a try?


Been through this before, although with me i wrote to them again with a strongly worded letter saying the bike has changed keepers and this is his address etc. And they sent a confirmation of them recieving this letter and they will update their records, yet a month later i got a court summons.

Went to court, explained this in court and she decided that the DVLA was wasting both our times.

The DVLA are useless, go to court explain your piece, you'll be in and out withing 5 mins.
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Re: legal advice?being summoned to court... Reply with quote

bwfc4eva86 wrote:

Been through this before, although with me i wrote to them again with a strongly worded letter saying the bike has changed keepers and this is his address etc. And they sent a confirmation of them recieving this letter and they will update their records, yet a month later i got a court summons.

Went to court, explained this in court and she decided that the DVLA was wasting both our times.

The DVLA are useless, go to court explain your piece, you'll be in and out withing 5 mins.


Well heres hoping Thumbs Up

I've got a funny feeling i'm gonna end up with a fine over it,but i'll try my best anyway.
The stupid thing is,i usually do forget to send log books away Laughing but this is one of them that i did actually send which is a bit shit.
They also sent me a speeding ticket for this car (nissan 200sx turbo) which i managed to get off with i think,or at least i haven't heard anything back from them since i wrote them a letter months ago.No doubt that will come back at me a year down the line Rolling Eyes .

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LustyLew
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

This, boys & girls, is why you always send stuff to the DVLA via special delivery. Gets there next day and you have a digital copy of the signature of whoever signed for it.

I've just sent off my licence to get a C1 & D1 provisional categories added.

I've taken photocopies of;

both sides of my plastic licence
the front of my paper counterpart licence
full copy of the medical form

If it comes back with anything missing, they will have to get it sorted as I have proof it was posted and of what was written!
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Rockhopper
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PostPosted: 20:23 - 17 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same thing happened to me about eighteen months ago now. They tried to fine me £40 which went up to £80 because i didn't pay it. We exchanged four or five strongly worded letters and i've heard nothing since.
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Fawbish
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PostPosted: 08:14 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve H wrote:
https://bp1.blogger.com/_cr9RD_gF-s4/RiipDfUKlfI/AAAAAAAAAUg/Ga0SCdRyUtY/s320/Vaseline%2520368g%2520L.jpg

Good Luck Thumbs Up



You shouldnt ever use vaseline. As a general lubrication its not bad, but where humans are involved, a good waterbased lubricant is better.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would ask them how exactly they are refuting service under section 7 of the 1978 interpretations act. Are they claiming non delivery or are they claiming to have lost your mail while under their care.

I would also question how exactly they are prosecuting you for failure to notify them when if you failed to notify them they wouldn't know about it.

Also in the court papers who does it refer to you against as there could be a question under the 1861 Provity rule as depending on who is taking you to court they may not be part of the contract.
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
I would ask them how exactly they are refuting service under section 7 of the 1978 interpretations act. Are they claiming non delivery or are they claiming to have lost your mail while under their care.


Their claiming they never recieved the document from me.

sickpup wrote:
I would also question how exactly they are prosecuting you for failure to notify them when if you failed to notify them they wouldn't know about it.

It was because the car had been caught by a speed camera.
When i recieved the fixed penalty and told them the details of the bloke i sold it to,they then told me i would be fined for not telling them about the change of keeper.
I pretty much told them to fuck right off,which has led to this.


sickpup wrote:
Also in the court papers who does it refer to you against as there could be a question under the 1861 Provity rule as depending on who is taking you to court they may not be part of the contract.

This is what it says on the first page.
You are summoned to appear at 14:15hrs on 14/10/08 at city of newcastle magistrates court to answer upon the information that on the 07/02/2008 at *my adress* following the change of keeper of a mechanically propelled vehicle *registration*,you being the keeper of the said vehicle,failed to notify the secretary of the state,forthwith,in writing as required by regulations 22 to 24 of the road vehicle (registration and licensing) regulations 2002 and section 59(1) of the vehicle excise and registration act 1994.

statement of facts

On the 07/02/2008 the defendant having previously kept motor vehicle *registration*,failed on the change of keeper of the vehicle,to notify the secretary of state,forthwith,as required by the regulations.


It has a few pages which is basicly asking me if i want to plead guilty or not.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

You did notify them on several occasions in writing as requested by them. They have updated their records to show of this notification.

Your defence would be that you have sent letters to them, but have had no reply, you have sent further letters stating you have had no reply and requested advice on your future actions. this advice has not been sent , although you have again requested a response from them. You did not feel it was necessary to keep copies or send via recorded delivery any correspondence as you are dealing with what you thought was a competent organisation. however in hind sight it would appear that they have lost or not followed up any of your correspondence, instead they have chosen to take you to court for their short comings.

just get your approx dates of sending letters and where you sent them t6o right.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

justmetoo125 wrote:


Their claiming they never recieved the document from me.



DVLA will not like this.

Section 7 of the 1978 interpretations act states...

Quote:
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.


You have fulfilled your side of the 'contract' (for want of a better word) by addressing, paying for a stamp and sending the letter. As they have only now refuted service and cannot be sure whether or not they failed to receive or internally lost your letter it is their problem to deal with.

Incidentally DVLA only record the arrival of recorded delivery and special delivery letters in a log book I have recently been informed. They also process in excess of 30,000 items of mail a day so some do go missing, the call us if you don't receive is their cop out throwing the onus upon you.
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 18 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply's Thumbs Up

Sickpup.I'll give that info to the solicitor when i see him,hopefully it should be quite usefull to him Thumbs Up

Thanks again everyone Thumbs Up
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Gazdaman
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 19 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I reckon you'll get away scott free providing you did actually send it.

You did your part. Royal mail, or they fucked up. Not your problem.

Magistrates are fairly switched on, and that paragraph Sickpup added is excellent.

Gaz
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 19 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gazdaman wrote:
Yeah, I reckon you'll get away scott free providing you did actually send it.

I hope so Thumbs Up

TBH i dont think it will make a difference if i sent it or not,i did but theres no proof either way.
I really cant afford any fines right now Crying or Very sad
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 19 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

justmetoo125 wrote:


TBH i dont think it will make a difference if i sent it or not,i did but theres no proof either way.
I really cant afford any fines right now Crying or Very sad



Proof is not your problem, the law doesn't require you to get it.

If the question is raised ask the DVLA chap when they last got proof of postage for an item.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 21 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also do a Freedom of information act request asking DVLA how many items of post to them are reported as missing a year and how many items from them are reported missing a year.

It should back you up quite nicely.
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Fortuna
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PostPosted: 01:59 - 22 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also- "Unless the contrary is proved".
They have to prove you didn't send it.
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 24 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:

DVLA will not like this.

Section 7 of the 1978 interpretations act states...

Quote:
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.


Well i spoke to the solicitor today.
He basicly said it's a hit and miss thing where depending on the day i may or may not get off with it Confused
I told him about the above interpretations act and he pretty much dismissed it straight away Shocked just kept changing the subject immediatly.
I mentioned it again, and again he didn't really want to know saying that it's no help since the log book states that i must contact dvla if i dont recieve a comfirmation letter.
He spent more time gettting the paperwork sorted for the legal aid(to pay for the short 10 min consultation) than explaining anything to me!
Then he told me i have no chance of getting legal aid paying him to defend me in court Crying or Very sad .(because it's not a jailable offence)
Hes gonna contact the dvla/court about this and he reckons with a bit of luck they may cancel the charges,since they rely on people just going in to court and accepting the fine!

Anyway,the letter hes writing means i dont have to attend court next month,but will have to attend the next one to argue my case when when this one gets ajourned.

Think i might try a different solicitor...
Just thought i'd let you know how i got on anyway Thumbs Up
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 25 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

justmetoo125 wrote:


Well i spoke to the solicitor today.
He basicly said it's a hit and miss thing where depending on the day i may or may not get off with it Confused
I told him about the above interpretations act and he pretty much dismissed it straight away Shocked just kept changing the subject immediatly.



I bet he did. I do wonder if sny one within the legal profession actually understand the act

justmetoo125 wrote:


I mentioned it again, and again he didn't really want to know saying that it's no help since the log book states that i must contact dvla if i dont recieve a comfirmation letter..



Pretty irrelevant unless the LAW states you must contact. I love the way people try to make legal policy more important than the law.

justmetoo125 wrote:


He spent more time gettting the paperwork sorted for the legal aid(to pay for the short 10 min consultation) than explaining anything to me!



Nice to know he always thinks about the bottom line.

justmetoo125 wrote:


Then he told me i have no chance of getting legal aid paying him to defend me in court Crying or Very sad .(because it's not a jailable offence)



He got that right at least.

justmetoo125 wrote:


Hes gonna contact the dvla/court about this and he reckons with a bit of luck they may cancel the charges,since they rely on people just going in to court and accepting the fine!



Would love to know on what grounds but then i think you would as well.

justmetoo125 wrote:


Think i might try a different solicitor...
Just thought i'd let you know how i got on anyway Thumbs Up



I would. A solicitor that can actually explain something is like gold dust.
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 16 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a little update to let you know the charges have been dropped Cool

Thanks for all the advice (sickpup Thumbs Up )

Thankfully,no vaseline will be needed after all Mr. Green
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Last edited by ---- on 16:25 - 16 Oct 2008; edited 1 time in total
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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 16 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fawbish wrote:
Steve H wrote:
https://bp1.blogger.com/_cr9RD_gF-s4/RiipDfUKlfI/AAAAAAAAAUg/Ga0SCdRyUtY/s320/Vaseline%2520368g%2520L.jpg

Good Luck Thumbs Up



You shouldnt ever use vaseline. As a general lubrication its not bad, but where humans are involved, a good waterbased lubricant is better.


It also Harbours bacteria quickly inside the human body, so not good for vaginal or bum bum love Wink
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Fawbish
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 16 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

justmetoo125 wrote:
Just a little update to let you know the charges have been dropped Cool

Thanks for all the advice (suckpup Thumbs Up )

Thankfully,no vaseline will be needed after all Mr. Green


Laughing Not sure he'll appreciate that


A good fact there Wave. Spread the word! Use decent lube or just go for it dry! *shudders* Thumbs Up
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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 16 Oct 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fawbish wrote:
justmetoo125 wrote:
Just a little update to let you know the charges have been dropped Cool

Thanks for all the advice (suckpup Thumbs Up )

Thankfully,no vaseline will be needed after all Mr. Green


Laughing Not sure he'll appreciate that


A good fact there Wave. Spread the word! Use decent lube or just go for it dry! *shudders* Thumbs Up


Saliva is better than nout, healthier than Vasaline any road.
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