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Rain affecting brakes?

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Pie-Roe
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Rain affecting brakes? Reply with quote
Hey all, I had to make a trip on the bike in the torrential rain we had in the south east, 50 miles or so.

I noticed half way through that the front brake was losing effectiveness rapidly, and now I have to grab it harshly (which would previously have me flipping a stoppy) to get any use of it.

Obviously I haven't had the chance to test it in the dry again, but somehow I don't think it'll make a difference

Water in the brake fluid somehow causing it to be spongey is my guess?

Any ideas?

Pyro
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Whosthedaddy
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Disc brakes are never that good in the extreme wet unlike old fashioned drums I suppose.

You could of course try and dab the front brakes whilst riding to try and dry them a little. Ever seen those signs after a ford telling you to dry your brakes?

In a car, right foot on throttle and left foot on brake and continue to drive along slowly.
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Pie-Roe
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whosthedaddy wrote:
Disc brakes are never that good in the extreme wet unlike old fashioned drums I suppose.

You could of course try and dab the front brakes whilst riding to try and dry them a little. Ever seen those signs after a ford telling you to dry your brakes?

In a car, right foot on throttle and left foot on brake and continue to drive along slowly.


I did not think of that, but I didn't explain clearly, the lever was returning more to the bar than it was before, it wasn't grabbing, and even pulling it in as far as it would go and holding it there was doing next to nowt.

Pyro
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Whosthedaddy
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ahh I see.

Low fluid or pad wear then?

Whats the bike?
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've had this before in the lake district, very cold and very wet after a while I had fock all front brake. Not sure why it does it mind.

Sintered pads are better in the wet.
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Pie-Roe
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
zxr750, full levels of fluid and pads should have another 1k miles at least.

It's confusing, and I want to get it fixed before I get roped into riding to london in poor conditions again.

Pyro
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prawny1
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Might be worth checking the seal on your master cylinder, and changing the brake fluid, if you get water in your brakes they will loose efficiency and can boil up after i bit of use.
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Jamie S
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 01 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
prawny1 wrote:
Might be worth checking the seal on your master cylinder, and changing the brake fluid, if you get water in your brakes they will loose efficiency and can boil up after i bit of use.


Which would cause them to bind, so there would be less travel of the leaver, not more.
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alun111
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PostPosted: 03:51 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
jamie stokes wrote:
prawny1 wrote:
Might be worth checking the seal on your master cylinder, and changing the brake fluid, if you get water in your brakes they will loose efficiency and can boil up after i bit of use.


Which would cause them to bind, so there would be less travel of the leaver, not more.


- But to start with would just make your brakes less effective, and would make the lever come closer to the bar when pulled. This is because water is easier to compress than brake fluid.
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Cigaro
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PostPosted: 09:32 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
pyroforlife wrote:
Whosthedaddy wrote:
Disc brakes are never that good in the extreme wet unlike old fashioned drums I suppose.

You could of course try and dab the front brakes whilst riding to try and dry them a little. Ever seen those signs after a ford telling you to dry your brakes?

In a car, right foot on throttle and left foot on brake and continue to drive along slowly.


I did not think of that, but I didn't explain clearly, the lever was returning more to the bar than it was before, it wasn't grabbing, and even pulling it in as far as it would go and holding it there was doing next to nowt.

Pyro


I think you have water in the brake fluid. Same thing happened to mine after a downpour. Perhaps the lid on the master cylinder isn't sealing properly?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
alun111 wrote:

- But to start with would just make your brakes less effective, and would make the lever come closer to the bar when pulled. This is because water is easier to compress than brake fluid.


Precisely, and as it got hotter the problem would become more pronounced. When brake fluid gets hot it becomes more compressible anyway, when it's mixed with water and it gets hot it gets even more compressible.

Bleed your brakes through with fresh fluid(old fluid is more compressible due to age and water absorbtion) as a starting point and check for any leaks. Thumbs Up
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Jamie S
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Big_Ham wrote:
alun111 wrote:

- But to start with would just make your brakes less effective, and would make the lever come closer to the bar when pulled. This is because water is easier to compress than brake fluid.


Precisely, and as it got hotter the problem would become more pronounced. When brake fluid gets hot it becomes more compressible anyway, when it's mixed with water and it gets hot it gets even more compressible.


To start with it could be worse, but once the brakes warm up, the water will boil, causing the brakes to bind if bad enough, and the pressure in the brake system to rise, making the leaver harder to pull, not easier.
Water in your brake system is bad full stop though, replace the old fluid with new fluid out of sealed container, and bleed them properly and I'd say it will sort your brakes out, and they might even work better than they used to.
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alun111
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
jamie stokes wrote:
Big_Ham wrote:
Precisely, and as it got hotter the problem would become more pronounced. When brake fluid gets hot it becomes more compressible anyway, when it's mixed with water and it gets hot it gets even more compressible.


To start with it could be worse, but once the brakes warm up, the water will boil, causing the brakes to bind if bad enough, and the pressure in the brake system to rise, making the leaver harder to pull, not easier.
Water in your brake system is bad full stop though, replace the old fluid with new fluid out of sealed container, and bleed them properly and I'd say it will sort your brakes out, and they might even work better than they used to.


What makes you think it would make them bind? It still takes about 150 degrees C for brake fluid to boil even with water in it. So still a fair bit of use. You have to take your brakes to their limit usually anyway to make the fluid boil.
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Whosthedaddy
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
The ZXR has adjustable levers, have they moved?

Every so often the ones on the 7 slide from the furthest setting (4) to the nearest (1) on the dial causing me to suddenly panic when you poull the lever and nothing happens until you almost reach the bar grips.
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BanditsHigh
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
This is because water is easier to compress than brake fluid.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but fluids cannot be compressed ... that's how hydraulics work ... pressure is applied at one end which causes the fluid to push at the other end by the same amount!!

The reason brake fluid is used and not water is because the brake fluid has a higher boiling temperature.

If you only have about 1k left on the brake pads then I'd change them, along with bleeding the entire hydraulic system.

Check your disks are still straight and not dished (like the edge of a dinner plate) ... if they are dished then this will mean that the majority of the piston movement is used up straightening the disk leaving very little to actually grip the disc, and when you release the lever the disc pushes the pistons in instead of them only moving in due to release of pressure ... only ever had this happen once on a bike but caused complete brake failure!!

Hope you get it sorted Thumbs Up
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Mark65
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PostPosted: 17:44 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
It could be down to fluid boiling poit, if your fluid is old or contaminated your brake fluid boiling point will lower and if you reach that tempriture the brake fluid will turn to gas and your brakes fail.
But when you let them cool they will seem like normal again.
But you would have to have a bit of moisture in your fluid.
Just a thought.

Mark
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rotax81
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 02 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
change the fluid and take it from there Thumbs Up
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Pie-Roe
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 03 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whosthedaddy wrote:
The ZXR has adjustable levers, have they moved?

Every so often the ones on the 7 slide from the furthest setting (4) to the nearest (1) on the dial causing me to suddenly panic when you poull the lever and nothing happens until you almost reach the bar grips.


I'm such a noob. And blind panic in the cold dark hail Embarassed

Cheers everyone Smile

Pyro
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alun111
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PostPosted: 06:48 - 03 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I didn't expect it to be such a simple fix! Well done to whosthedaddy!
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 07:24 - 03 Nov 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
BanditsHigh wrote:
Quote:
This is because water is easier to compress than brake fluid.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but fluids cannot be compressed ... that's how hydraulics work ... pressure is applied at one end which causes the fluid to push at the other end by the same amount!!



Water's very slightly compressable.

https://data.piercecollege.edu/weather/water.html

It varies with temperature too, although I heard what you're saying.
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