Parking Ticket Appeal - Advice Please

[TheDonUK]

Hello BCF,

At the beginning of the month i received a PCN from my local london borough for parking in a loading bay outside a tesco for 3 minutes, as is my standard procedure for dealing with such things i sent an appeal on the grounds that being a motorcycle courier i was infact loading, and as such no contravention occured.

Now just to clear it up for you, I am a courier on and off but that day i was not working, i just nipped into tesco for a couple of minutes to pick something up. They have no way of knowing that and i am willing to lie about it...

They have responded that they reject my appeal on the following grounds, ill just type out the relevant parts of their response verbatim.

[yen_powell]

What borough? Have you checked that the loading bay and it's associated sign conforms to all the regs? Would add to the case if that was unenforeceable.
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[TheDonUK]

Richmond, And yes, they even sent me pictures of the sign, i dont think there are any avenues to explore down the road of signage, road markings etc, i think my only option is to argue i was infact loading. Im just unsure of how to word it.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[yen_powell]

[TheDonUK]

Im going out in a bit, i will ride past the bay in question and have a look, but TBH having submitted my original appeal on the grounds of something else i cant imagine it would look good for me to change now.

Tomorow i will write a draft appeal and post it on here,

Advice always welcome in the meantime
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[Fortuna]

What a load of nonsense.
Now they are saying the item has to be on the vehicle and not the person?

[powelly]

I used to get this sort of thing with various councils around the northwest. A few years ago I worked for a chain of jewellers and I would often take stock to branches.

Oldham council actually said if we wanted to park in the loading bay we had to use a sign written van, they backed down on this when we said we would get the press involved at the shear stupidity of the suggestion, after all have you ever seen a Beaverbrooks Van? might as well paint it "Rob Me!"

The other regular argument was that we were not seen carrying anything, this was usually resolved by pointing out that a dozen diamond rings worth in excess of £20,000 would quite easiy fit in an envelope in your inside pocket.
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[TheDonUK]

Thats exactly my thinking, ie if i had medicine it could easily be in a pocket etc,

Oh and the bay is marked up correctly, i had a look earlier.

The thing that boils my blood more than anything about this extortion is the lack of common sense in this country, now enforced by CCTV, even by their own admission i was parked there for around 3 minutes... CCTV Snap snap 1984 pay us or else...


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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[MattEMulsion]

Good luck but I think there is only a 50/50 chance that you will win. Besides in fairness you were actually in the wrong and if it was me I think at this stage I would just accept it and pay the fine. Sometimes digging yourself deeper into it with more lies and getting others to make false statements isn't the way forward.
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Yamaha YZF-R6

[c_dug]

I'd go for it, i cant see how they can say you didnt have anything on you (apart from if they somehow came across this thread ) as long as you can get a "delivery note" and a letter from "the client" then how can they say you weren't delivering?

My dad lives in Teddington by the way so its not inconcievable that you would be delivering to his address, if you want ill gladly say i ordered the medicine or whatever, PM me if you want to try that and we can sort something out.

also it could be worth giving this video a watch https://www.tpuc.org/node/494 from madmans thread in current affairs, the first half an hour basicly makes the point that things like parking offences cannot be upheld in court (or something like that) and a bunch of stuff about the difference between "person" and a "human being" in law which could work for you, its worth a watch

c_dug
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[TheDonUK]

Thanks for the offer dug, ill keep it in mind,

I just watched the link for about 45 minutes, I think he is operating on a very abstract level but is talking sense, in the differentiation between human being and person, Ie common law, Harm, loss or injury being applicable to everyone, and also policemen having discretion over common law, whereas statute law, which applies to parking tickets and the like has none at all and is on the basis of commercial intent... Quite interesting

Matt: thanks for the luck and i do accept your point that making up evidence is not an ideal situation... And yes i suppose according to the road traffic act of xxxx i was in the wrong for around 3 minutes, but surely common sense seeing a bike, parked in an empty bay for under 5 minutes, not causing an obstruction or depriving anyone of anything should not be fined...

I cant bring myself to just pay money (which i dont have) out of fear of the government essentially, Pay us £50 now or it gets more expensive and we will take you to court, they should fear us not vice-versa.

Im going to try and write up a response as best i can now..
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[c_dug]

Any luck with writing up the responce?

c_dug
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I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[TheDonUK]

As a rough draft:

"In response to the rejection of my representations,
I maintain that on the date of the alleged contravention I was loading and thus in accordance with the bay restrictions.
The claim has been made that for the exemption to apply i must place goods in my vehicle,
As common sense would dictate the small nature of the medicines which i was employed to collect from the Tesco store were in my inner pocket at the time rather than somehow attached to my motorcycle as the council seems to suggest i should have done for this exemption to apply.

I reject their definition of what constitutes loading and furthermore claim that what they consider loading to be does not take into account motorcycle couriers and the nature of such work. Many items are unsuitable for placement inside the vehicle and thus are carried in alternative ways, this however does not change the fact that at the time in question i was loading, Delivery notes and witness statements will be produced in person to the ajudicator."

Thats very rough but as rough idea... how would you clean that up?
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[st3v3]

Surely they can't take it upon themselves to decide how something is used? It's like if DHL carry a parcel on the dashboard instead of in the back it's not counted as a courier service...

Fight it, there's no common sense in charge in this country anymore and you have nothing to lose that you aren't aware of already.

If a Tesco's van is parked there and the driver is on a break instead of actually loading, does that mean he's in contravention of the 'rules' too? I doubt he'd get nabbed on it tho....

I'd send that as is, it's to the point and professional, I'm just glad I use a tank bag.
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[stinkwheel]

Also sounds like time to be making a freedom of information request for the CCTV footage. These things often get "Lost" (ie, can't be arsed looking for it/CD on someones desk etc). That seldom goes down well when things go to court.

I can state as absolute fact that claims in letters such as you received about exidence seen and site visits are often wholly fabricated.

I recall Edinburgh council claiming to have visited a site where I was allegedly illegally parked (I too was loading, in a transit van, parked at the end of a cul-de-sac). I had contested it on the basis that I was loading, that the road markings were so worn as to be illegible and that there was no statuatory signage in evidence.

They responded saying they had done a site visit and the restriction was in force. I replied demanding a written appology for lying and an immediate dropping of the ticket or I would produce their letter in court along with photographs and witness statements showing the piece of road in question had been converted to a wheelie bin storage area prior to the date their inspection was supposedly carried out.
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[TheDonUK]

The first thing before i even sent my intial appeal to the council was to ask for evidence, They sent me around 6 pictures, 4 of which show my bike in the bay at varying levels of zoom (remembering the ticket was issued from a solitary CCTV camera which i did not know about at the time), and the other two were photo's one of them had taken of the sign from foot level.

In response to i think yen_powell earlier in the thread i had a look at the bay and sign and i dont think there is much scope for appeal down that route, i think they may have shot themselves in the foot in the way they rejected, ie stating it has to be in the vehicle etc.

From what i understand this will not goto court though only to an adjudicator, and the hearing will only be me and him, so im relying on my ability to explain in person to him/her the situation and hope they see sense.

Ill clean up that little statement i made and send it off tomorow.

If it fails ill grudgingly pay and become ever more disgruntled with this country.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[owdamer]

[MarkJ]

[The Disapproving Brit]

For parking, assumming the evidence shows you with your helmet on, I find the best defence is "Sorry, wasn't me".

Like a speeding ticket, the fine is applied to the driver. Unlike a speeding ticket, it isn't a criminal matter, which means the registered keeper cannot be compelled to identify the driver.
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[sickpup]

[TheDonUK]

Cheers Sickpup,

I used your point about the 7.5 tonne a4 box logic and the lack of minimum weight restrictions in the final appeal i sent,

I will update this post when i hear something.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[TheDonUK]

The council out of hand rejected, and today i had my Ajudicators hearing, and it all came down to whether he thought my bike falls under the definition of goods vehicle. He dident give a decision today said he wants to think about it for a bit but he will probably find against me...

Oh well...
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[The Shaggy D.A.]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were so petty to look at the in store CCTV, see what till you used at what time, then checked the till receipt to see what "medicine" you bought.
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[TheDonUK]

The Ajudicators/Council have no access to in store CCTV,

In the evidence the council submitted there was a DVD showing highly exciting and relevant footage of me walking to my bike, putting on my lid...

The Ajudicator (who incidentally are no longer based at New Zealand House but are now next to Angel tube station) was some toff barrister, he accepted that i was collecting goods, but as the PCN charge was "Using a bay intended for a different type of vehicle" or somesuch he said the contention point was if my bike classes as a Goods vehicle under the 1988 Road traffic act section 192,

Which defines a goods vehicle as "any motor vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods", my feeble argument was that my bike was constructed as a race bike with a racing cowell and that the removal of it and me adding bungee points constitutes adaptation for goods.

From the tone of the whole thing i reckon he is about 70/80% likely to find in favour of the scum council, usually though they give the decision right away, we both agreed it was an interesting point.

Wish me luck, i cant afford the full whack ticket now...
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[powelly]