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Itchy
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wizzzard
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 Posted: 23:52 - 23 Mar 2009  Post subject: |
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The part that that amazed me most was the letter stating he was suspected but not telling him why he was a suspect.
NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the Land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right
How is it possible that since the magna carta we have gone backwards?
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pa_broon74
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| Posted: 15:37 - 24 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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They've had similar laws in the US for years. If a Federal Judge rules that money or material has been gained unlawfully or are profits of crime, said goods/moneys etc can be summarily seized.
Apparently its used often on suspects (usually in drug related cases) long before they are tried in order to pile the pressure on. Generally (although this is heresay,) assets are rarely if ever returned.
Basically gives the US federal government carte blanche to seize anything it pleases, given federal judges tend to be political appointees.
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SoND
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| Posted: 18:35 - 24 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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They do it to drug dealers here all the time. They're thieves.
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ThoughtContro...
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Mister James
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| Posted: 20:31 - 24 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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As usual we're assuming that this chap HAS done nothing, and that Channel Four News have done their usual un-biased job.......
(That last bit was sarcastic - C4 News are horrendously biased in cases like this)
| Quote: | NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the Land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right
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You need to read your ancient laws more carefully. Observe where your argument falls down - highlighted in bold for the hard-of-thinking. As per the title, these actions are based on Statute Law, and thus the continual (and seemingly confused) common law-based ranting so popular on these boards doesn't apply.
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igiyf
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Itchy
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Skudd
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Itchy
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| Posted: 10:27 - 25 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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| Skudd wrote: | I think it is a great idea that if you suspect someone of funding terror or other major crimes, you freeze their funds and account, only giving them enough to live on until you have investigated them. I'm sure that those who do the freezing don't do it lightly. i see it like having someone on remand before their trial. It stops the funds from being moved.
Yes I know it would be a pain in the arse if it were to happen to me, but I'm sure none of my activities would bring me into the radar of those that do the investigating. |
Problem is the law is poorly written it was never subject to parlimentary scrutiny (this in itself is a very bad indication in that the government is ruling by dictat rather than parlimentary votes). Ie there is no definition of what a basic expense is and thus the person has to ask his solicitor who then has to ask the treasury who then has to ask an MP for permission.
If you have to ask an MP if you can buy food then its gone a bit too far.
Also its heavy handed , in that when criminals are caught money laundering they do not get black listed in such a manner HMRC monitors their communications and asks their banks to provide statements to them. And HMRC watches them, HMRC doesn't tell people they are being watched , it just will. Blacklisting in such a manner alerts that person they are being blacklisted and if they really do find somebody guilty they aren't going to do anything illegal while they are being monitored are they?.
Also you say I'm sure the treasury don't do this lightly , how do you know? , in that this law is written in such a manner that there is virtually NO oversight, ie it was only challenged by judicial review.
If there are no consequences of getting it wrong then such people may well use this law gung ho fashion.
We and probably you see this in new drivers in that they drive carefully (most of the time) fearful they will be caught , after a few weeks or months they realise that breaking many of the traffic laws has very little if any consequence.
Or MPs who fiddle their expenses there are no consequences hence they all do this willy nilly and steal from the public purse constantly, take bribes etc.
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Posted: 10:52 - 25 Mar 2009  Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | The reasons why information on terror cases is not put on general release should be obvious. |
Because it might be embarrassing ? , like Tanks at airports because of a Martial arts school called Ultimate Jihadi something or other.
| Mister James wrote: |
My point stands - mad man (and now you, I assume?) is jumping all over this because it suits his world-view to do so, not because there is any compelling evidence that the government has done anything wrong.
What we do have is a man who refuses to be named or seen rather ironically complaining that the government won't reveal secret information to him. |
No you are just using the old london cabbies excuse of no smoke without fire, and hence anybody arrested , caught detained or has involvement with police is automatically guilty.
I think the general difference is between our view on the world and your view on the world is that you think the government is a beneviolence entity.
In that my view on the world is that they are just gangsters , the pieces of the jigsaw all fit. In that the government are virtually just a really big gang of extortionists.
The government has a monopoly on violence and kidnapping , if you do not obey they will use violence which they have a monopoly upon against you or kidnap you.
They have all the guns although you maybe legally correct and as Sickpup may state there is an opt out but does this matter if you are outnumbered by millions?.
The difference is that they have to maintain a delicate charade, ie they cannot just say DO AS I SAY OR DIE , as this would utterly blow their cover. And thus they have to move slowly like frog soup.
Ie don't pay your council tax for a few months and government agents will come and threaten you and kidnap you if you do not comply, it all boils down to violence.
Its just been corporatised and thus instead of a thug coming round your house they send letters and threats through the post , ie you get if you do not do this you face a £1000 fine all over government documents.
Its very little diffferent from a thug appearing at your house with a baseball bat demanding money.
Most people will say that is ridiculous because they provide services in return....
But all sucessful gangster families ensure that they never take too much , gangsters understand economics too , in that if they take too much the client dies or cannot raise future funds and thus their business comes to a dead end.
The public services angle is just a charade and exists as a support structure for this effective business model. In effect the government TAKES money off you and says YOU WANT this and that you have no choice in the matter.
Ie BCFers want motorbikes so they go and buy them..
The government says something like you WANT cars and takes your money and buys you a car forcing it upon you effectively.
You don't believe me? , consider the money in your pocket, it is fiat money, Fiat money only has value due to 3 things:
Faith in the currency.
As my book of money puts it "the ability of the government to apply law" upon the population.
Taxation (which creates demand).
You might say what other choice do we have? , all your (my) bolt holes are similar states where the government has the monopoly on violence and hence any move away is just moving into business of another gangster.
The difference is that some gangsters do not take as much , and also their forefathers were smart enough to prevent the extortion getting out of hand.
And they are willing to apply such violence to themselves also, Chen Siu ben of Taiwan for example is rotting away in prison for fiddling his expenses and taking bribes, I don't see this happening to UK MPs.
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Mister James
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Posted: 11:01 - 25 Mar 2009  Post subject: |
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| mad_man wrote: |
Of course...he has the Right to his privacy...the mass media mind in this country would do him a lot of damage for a start but that aside how dare you even question a persons reasons for staying anonymous..wtf mate? And to use that as some sort of equalizers for the govs corrupt actions....your attitude is toxic to the freedoms of those around you because an injustice against one is an injustice against all. |
This little quote here shows perfectly why you are a wilfully blind moron, and why I am wasting my time even thinking about debating with you.
If you want privacy - don't go out of your way to be the starring role in another hyperbole-filled C4 rant against the government!
I'm not 'equalizing' anything, because so far we have no proof that the government has actually done anything - just the word of The Faceless Man. Lets face it, as sources go, if his story is even partially true he ain't gonna be the most even-handed, is he?
I don't give a jar of monkey-spunk what you think of my attitude - you're the one that's always banging on about freedom of speech and opinion: Well, that's MY opinion, and I'm free to hold it.
And as for 'WTF mate' - I'm NOT your mate, and I'll question whatever I frakkin' well please. You're all for questions when they tally up with your frakked-in-the-head worldview, but not when they differ. You're as bad as the 'zanu labour scum' that you bunch are always whining about.
The fact is, most people agree with me, or don't give a shit - because they don't buy into your 'maybe, what if, imagine if' mentality of persecution and paranoia. We've already won - which is ironic, because we weren't even fighting you, we were just getting on with life.
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pa_broon74
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Posted: 12:53 - 25 Mar 2009  Post subject: |
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Normally I wouldn't argue a point like this but I'm having a slow day...
| Mister James wrote: | As usual we're assuming that this chap HAS done nothing, and that Channel Four News have done their usual un-biased job....... |
How is us assuming he didn't do anything (in line with the innocent until proven guilty ideal) any different from you assuming he did something wrong?
| Mister James wrote: | The reasons why information on terror cases is not put on general release should be obvious. |
| Mister James wrote: | As usual we're assuming that this chap HAS done nothing, and that Channel Four News have done their usual un-biased job....... |
While the court case can be held in camera, the resultant guilty verdict would be reported. Until a person is found guilty by a jury of their peers, the assumption is; they are innocent.
| Mister James wrote: | What we do have is a man who refuses to be named or seen rather ironically complaining that the government won't reveal secret information to him. |
Again, you can't excuse the government withholding information then criticise the guy for not wanting to be identified. Arguably, the man has much more to lose by making himself known than the government has by being a little more forthcoming with information.
| Mister James wrote: | The fact is, most people agree with me, or don't give a shit - because they don't buy into your 'maybe, what if, imagine if' mentality of persecution and paranoia. We've already won - which is ironic, because we weren't even fighting you, we were just getting on with life. |
I would say most folk don't agree but can't be arsed to do a point by point fully quoted rebuttal of the things you say, this is the same trick used by governments; they assume the support of those people who for whatever reason chose to stay quiet.
The ones that actually don't give a shit are as responsible for the mess we are in as those who defend the government and what its trying to do (what ever that actually is, I'm still not sure of their ultimate goals.). This isn't a maybe/what if/imagine if scenario here, it actually happened to someone and is no doubt happening to others.
As I said, I try not to get into these debates because they are futile, but I always thought (not that you give a toss mind,) you were a fairly even minded person, but in this instance, your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny, they merely counter assumptions from one end of the spectrum (which you could argue, have more substance) with more assumption from the other end which seem to have their routes in your personal world view.
What you seem to be saying is, its ok to detain with out charge, to punish without need of due process and citizens need to tow the line (without knowing what it is exactly) or face the consequences.
Normally I read your posts and read mad-mans (and others too) and fall somewhere in between, but you've lost me on this one. In the same way mad-man can go a wee bit overboard in his direction, you seem to be doing the same in your own in this instance.
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igiyf
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| Posted: 12:54 - 25 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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Bahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa mr james on a verbal assault spree  go on my son!
| Quote: | This little quote here shows perfectly why you are a wilfully blind moron, and why I am wasting my time even thinking about debating with you. |
How so? Does each end every living person in this country have 100% right to privacy?I believe the answer is yes
Does this country suffer from a mass media mind consisting of instantly judgmental individuals who don't disregard the facts,its more of a case they don't even get to the facts jumping to and acting upon conclusions made not by them..but by the media?i believe the answer is yes.
| Quote: | If you want privacy - don't go out of your way to be the starring role in another hyperbole-filled C4 rant against the government! |
Is it true that having any connection with the big "t" whether it be proven by conviction of court,failed charges or just being on a list will effect ones chances of getting jobs and so on.. i believe the answer is yes ...this is easily proven by your attitude towards the guy who was charged with NOTHING..."how dare he speak out against the gov!!"
| Quote: | so far we have no proof that the government has actually done anything - just the word of The Faceless Man. Lets face it, as sources go, if his story is even partially true he ain't gonna be the most even-handed, is he? |
If this story is 100% false,the asset freeze never happened and the letter a fake then yes..theres no argument and the gov haven"t done anything wrong..clearly..
| Quote: | I don't give a jar of monkey-spunk what you think of my attitude - you're the one that's always banging on about freedom of speech and opinion: Well, that's MY opinion, and I'm free to hold it. |
Excellent i don't expect you or want you to care what i think of you,theres zero return on that investment for you and if there were this would mean you liked me  ...and yes i am am always talking about freedom of speech,opinion and action because they are important to me.
And when it is i see cowards completely fucking up this country handing over bit by bit freedom in return for "safety" this is in conflict with the world i desire to experience..it starts with issues like this and it will progress across the board....speeding sir? money straight out the bank points on license lengthy and costly proceedings afterwards if its an interest of yours to prove it was not you.
You see its not the fact they froze his assets its the fact they never told him why other than the nature of the believed offense,,humans make mistakes and mix ups are more than common..for a person to be punished and not informed of the charges..SPECIFIC CHARGES...
I don't understand why i even have to explain this to a person..imagine being arrested for murder and locked up for one year, never being told who you were supposed to have murdered or how..whats the difference?
As far as you opinion goes you are free to have it yes how ever if you would like to enforce such a thing as punishment without charge/being inform of the charges please fuck off to china.
| Quote: | And as for 'WTF mate' - I'm NOT your mate, and I'll question whatever I frakkin' well please. You're all for questions when they tally up with your frakked-in-the-head worldview, but not when they differ. You're as bad as the 'zanu labour scum' that you bunch are always whining about. |
What have you question beyond if the story is real or not then mate?
| Quote: | The fact is, most people agree with me, or don't give a shit - . |
If there were 6 billion and one people on planet earth and 6 billion believed being punished for a 12 month period without being given the reasons as to why leaving just me with the belief that its wrong i would"t change my belief..it does not matter how many people invest in a belief if its wrong its wrong and to use that in your debate goes to show how much you are lacking.
| Quote: | because they don't buy into your 'maybe, what if, imagine if' mentality of persecution and paranoia. |
| Quote: | We have reasonable grounds to suspect you are,OR MAY BE,a person who facilitates the commission of terroism |
| Quote: | We've already won - which is ironic, because we weren't even fighting you, we were just getting on with life |
Correct they have almost won in stripping the rights and freedoms away from the people but in doing so they are providing a lot of amusement when it comes to the useful idiots following the machine on there knees sniffing its arse believing that they have the same power as it ..worthy goal to win mr james...very. |
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| Posted: 15:41 - 25 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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Once again, people jump to assumptions that suit them
| pa_broon74 wrote: | a lot of stuff |
I have yet to express a considered opinion on this specific case, I just grow tired of the usual out-of-control bandwagon we see on here time and time again - and pointed out the inconsistencies in their arguments.
As such, all of your points are moot, because they are just mine reversed! I'm the one critiquing mad_man's arguments, not the other way round.
| cold insomnia wrote: | Are you serious? You accuse us, who suspect the rich and powerful of dirty deeds, of being paranoid? Don't you think that giving the police the right to incarcerate anyone they wish without trial is paranoid? Don't you think that's a "mentality of persecution"?
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Yes, I do accuse you of that - as evidenced by your inability to look at anything like this with an attitude even approaching that of rationality and even-handedness.
| Quote: | How so? Does each end every living person in this country have 100% right to privacy?I believe the answer is yes
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Then you are wrong.
EDIT - oh, and if your wilfully poor spelling and English wasn't enough, you have to start using bizarre and meaningless phrases like "mass media mind"?! Seriously, get out more - and learn to use the spell checker.
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| Posted: 15:53 - 25 Mar 2009 Post subject: |
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You see, there we go again. Comparing a hypothetical and vague situation with an ACTUAL one - ie this thread, and this story.
A man who refuses to be named makes allegations to a known left-wing/anti-government news channel. There is no evidence presented, and if it exists - YOU certainly don't know it. You thus form your opinion on this very limited set of intel, and suddenly start expounding it as proof that you were right all along!
There is no proof of wrong doing, there is no evidence of misuse of powers, or even that they have had negative effects. There is one anonymous man making unsupported allegations about one possible case out of many.
Hold your opinions by all means, just don't try and kid yourselves that you've provided any evidence to support them with this little episode.
As I've said many times, you're as bad as the people you claim exist - wilfully twisting situations to their own advantage.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 17 years, 189 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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