What are we obliged to do for the Police?

[WildGoose]

Inspired by the, 'I just got tugged' thread, and various videos seen here ( https://www.tpuc.org/ ) . It struck a chord, because due to increased motoring of one sort of another over recent years i've had plenty of dealings with them (and other government enforcement officials).

I'm pretty sure most of us aren't certain, me included, precisely what our rights are regarding, privacy, cooperation and generally dealing with the coppers.

The more I think about it, the more it irritates me that we don't know, if our school system was up to anywhere the standard it should be, we should all be taught precisely what we are entitled to, and more importantly /where/ we can read it for ourselves.

A few years ago, before I was really interested, an officer of the law could happily spout any bullshit he felt he could get away with to support his point, and i'd probably have gone a long with it. I'm sure a lot of people are like this, and in some way tricked into some admission of guilt, or at least enough that the police can then use it against you.

To those who have seen the video of the guy filming the police for no apparent reason from his yard https://www.tpuc.org/node/124 , and they come wondering over, demanding he turn it off, taking his address and demanding his name, only to be forced to walk away with their tail between their legs after a re-education over the radio. I doubt I would have remained calm enough to say the right things.

So for example.
-Do you have to give you name? Why?
-Address? Why? What circumstances?
-Do you have to hand over your licence?
-Do you have to get out of a car?
-Do you have to sit in theirs?
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So in other words, he stopped you for being flagrantly in posession of a motorcycle in direct contravention of the Hippies, Darkies and People Whose Face I Don't Like The Look of (Police Powers) Act. 1976

[Scouse]

I'm sure I remember a case where somebody refused to give their details after being stopped in the street and I'm sure that there isn't actually a legal requirement to provide in such a situation. I may be corrected on this but even if it is true, they can and will only make your life at that moment in time difficult for you.

I can see where you're coming from but I also have to say that you are looking like you are about to be joining Hetzer in his regular rant campaign. I aren't being funny, just making an observation.

As much as the police can be a pain in the arse, they aren't all like that and some can be very helpful. I can only assume that most of the arsey ones are how they are through a lack of respect from the public as they proceed with their 'daily job'. I think that a lot of the problem with the way the majority view them is through a)bullshit spouted via male ego's and b)the fact that many people, even when in the wrong fail to admit to what they are doing and feel they are above the rest.

[WildGoose]

Not about to jump off on any kind of a rant, there is enough of them about the police at the moment, without my help. They are doing a fine job (the ranters, not the police).

I always play the good citizen, because i'm not stupid and know that is the quickest way to get on my merry way. I am polite for the most part to everyone until they give me a reason not to be.

Just getting more and more attached to my privacy as time goes along, and want to know in the face of infinite requirement to 'register' for this and that, what little I can do to maintain what little I have left.
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So in other words, he stopped you for being flagrantly in posession of a motorcycle in direct contravention of the Hippies, Darkies and People Whose Face I Don't Like The Look of (Police Powers) Act. 1976

[Scouse]

Anything that you wish to keep private is already on their computer database already, unless you've been a very very good little boy. I just see things like the thread you've suggested as being a copper trying his luck on a hunch and giving out something to be awkward in return for a lack of respect that he may feel from the person he has stopped.

It's terrible that I sound like I am standing up for the police and I can totally say that I do not wish to by far. I just feel that sometimes people build too much of an opinion and stereotype through some other peoples inability to tell the whole story.

[bazza]

From the Met site:

[Pickledswede]

If you are being arrested, the police need reasonable suspicion that you have commited, are commiting or will commit a crime- even when they do have reasonable suspicion, they must believe it is NECESSARY to arrest you, not giving your name or address, or giving one they reasonably assume is fake, is a reason for them to arrest you.

Reasonable suspicion 'cannot be supported on personal factors alone' i.e. fashion, age, sex, ethnic background etc.

So in an arrest you should give your name and address. Otherwise no, you don't have to (AFAIA)

Bit more info, in a stop and search, the officer must give their name, station, a reason for them stopping and searching you (reasonable suspicion that they will find / prohibited articles) and tell you what it is they expect to find! Otherwise it's an unlawful stop and search and you can report them

I know this isn't all relevant but it's all stuff I was interested to find out when I started Law at AS!

[bazza]

[Pickledswede]

[bazza]

[Hetzer]

It's a police-state, the filth can do whatever the fuck they like. Including assaulting you and then doing you for breach of the peace, resisting arrest and assaulting a police-officer. All for voicing your displeasure at being criminally stopped and searched under the aegis of a criminal law made by criminal politicians.

Why won't you people open your eyes and accept the fact that you are not free citizens, you are criminal suspects in a huge prison.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Pickledswede]

[colin1]

There is a world of difference between knowing your 'rights' and being able to outwit a policeman who is well practised in making people relinquish them.

I would have thought the best policy is to do as you are asked but not be bullied into incriminating yourself.

The first advice a criminal lawyer would give his client is "Don't say anything until I get there."

Its a balance between playing the dutiful obedient citizen, and making sure that you dont say anything that could be used against you.

Even if you are struck by a policemen unprovoked, with several witnesses that support your side, chances are, the policeman would be given the benefit of the doubt, unless it was somehow captured on film, and police failed to confiscate the camera.

For centuries, people in this country could only be imprisoned if they had been put on trial in front of a jury of their peers.

For centuries, it was innocent until proven guilty.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[yuri2085]

[The View Askew]

The problem with police officers is that there is always more of them than there is of you.


Despite any mistreatment/harassment of an individual/entity and possible aggravation of that individual/entity, otherwise decent officers will swoop in with force normally used for real trouble under the illusion they are helping a good cause, which has been fabricated by a corrupt wanker at your end.


This lets them down.


I will always cooperate with an officer of law by logic, if I have a dispute, others will come, eventually, they WILL have their way, whether I like it or not, so to be polite and mask my personality totally is standard, be a drone model citizen until they go away.


The going away normally happens fast if you cooperate anyway, even the arseholes love a brown-noser.


Pun intended completely.


Despite my views I respect that when someone says to a police officer who has stopped them "Go find real criminals"
Randomly stopping cars IS a way of finding real criminals, and these people irritate me more than police officers.


Coppers are by and large good men, who want to do right, but are subdued into petty bureaucratic methods of doing that right, which leads to corruption of spirit, and being a jobsworth tosser, to be a copper, you HAVE to be a jobsworth, just like the army, there are some very questionable rules.








Have a beer everyone.
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"Do what you always did, get what you always got"

[Hetzer]

Lawful and unlawful is just a matter of who's making the legislation. Hundreds of East-German Stasi were arrested, prosecuted and convicted by the West-German authorities, for enforcing their government's laws. "I was just obeying orders." Hmm, wonder where that's been heard before.

So the UK gets a totally new government, of and for the people, and all the pigs involved in 'kettling' are arrested, prosecuted and convicted of false imprisonment. All the stop-and-searchers, arrested for assault, false-imprisonment and threatning behaviour. Oh, how long is the list of crimes against the people. But all 'lawful' right now...just like the Stasi's.

Just because some scumbag says it's the 'law' doesn't make it lawful. And just because you've commited an 'offence' by resisting doesn't mean you've commited a crime.

This country is run by criminals, and policed by criminals, just like hitler's nazi Germany was. Fact.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Flip]

(Nothing worse than typing a huge post only for a power cut to delete it all )

I think tey don't make a fuss about rights because chav teenagers/kids know more than enough of their rights.

Gone are the days where a clip around the ear fixed things.

[Hetzer]

[Ariel Badger]

I have lived in police states, I have been imprisoned in police states. The Uk is not a police state. Sigi, stop reading the Trot papers.
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Bikers make great organ donors, get 115 on your licence today.

[Hetzer]

[yuri2085]

I think we cant group 'police' and 'politicians' under the same judgement.

I do agree that ALL officers should go to a greater extent to ignore laws that they dont agree with, and I agree that perhaps many are too stupid/ dont care enough to realise about these sort of things; I do believe if/when i become a police officer i will ignore what I can of stupid laws (as in ignoring people flouting them) but I also believe I will follow them in some circumstances as I want to be in a position to make a difference.
The problem is (and also referring to nazi germany) is where the line is drawn in following the laws of the land against what is 'lawful'.

Lawmaking in this country is so fucked though, which is why we SHOULD be complaining about erosion of rights; and laws which could be abused.
Because we already have laws that can be abused or misinterpreted, we also need to make a big fuss about officers who do 'lawful' actions which are wrong (luckily generally this is not the intention of the law-luckily as in we dont have so many laws which are intentionally wrong). And also officers like those who try and stop people filming them; those are the kind who LIKE oppressive laws, IDK if its a law or not those people should be hated and distrusted.
I think my point was we should focus on the lawmaking as it is the most productive way of keeping the police force under control (and also for other reasons...its important).

Anyway I have kind of lost what I was saying but this is full of plenty of opinions which I'm sure are super awesome.

[Hetzer]

The laws of this country are no longer intended to maintain justice for all, and never have been, they are intended to enforce subservience. And by that virtue alone they are criminal, in that they constitute crimes against the people, both collectively and as individuals.

Brave people defy them and take the consequences (imprisonment), knowing that so long as the people who created those laws remain in power the imprisoned will be regarded and treated as criminals.

The only laws that are lawful, in that they have legitimate moral authority, are those which deal with individuals who have materially harmed other individuals. There are, of course, exceptional exceptions which have to be made, by virtue of our nature having exceeded nature through un-natural technological development (for want of a better term).

Governments are, by definition, criminal entities that exist for the advantage of themselves and their own class at the expense of those they are supposed to serve (the people). And anyone who willingly does their bidding, where that bidding is concerned with the un-lawful oppression of the peoples' rights, is a criminal too.

The world is governed the way it is, and as it has been for millenia, because it massively advantages the few. And that, of necessity, is at the expense of the many. And there is absolutely NOTHING that the few won't do to maintain the status-quo. They will, if it comes to it, murder you, and murder your children, in order to keep their power and their wealth and their privilage and their exclusivity. That is a cold hard fact, borne out by history and by what we see happening now and by what is clearly planned for the future.

Human civilisation is based upon slavery. Always has been, is, and will always be. Unless someone, or something, breaks the cycle.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[colin1]

I agree with hetzer on his analysis, but I dont think its necessarily a bad thing.

Its the best system we have.

The obedient slaves, are rewarded, and are given meaning to our lives by working for our masters to get status symbols.

Because we are valuable to our masters, they don't crush us under their boot, the way supposedly people friendly systems like communism do.

When you try to overthrow capitalism and replace it with something better, you get something worse.

Its not capitalism that is the problem, its just having a few checks and balances.

Unfortunately things aren't quite right, but they could be a lot worse.

In our system, anyone can become a slave owner. One day, I may own a house to let out, and maybe get another.

I may even be able to gain an income enough to live on from my slave tenants, rather than working as a slave myself.

But I will risk my capital in doing so because it could all go wrong. Its only fair that the owner of capital gets reward for risking it.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Fnatic]

I've been stopped many times to take my details. Usually if you refuse they tell you I have to under the terrorism act as I'm in a terrorist target area whilst on an industrial estate.

[Kwaks]

[Ariel Badger]