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Running a bike with no end can

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AppleJoe
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Joined: 02 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: 08:03 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Running a bike with no end can Reply with quote
While changing over my can yesterday, I couldn't resist firing it up while it had no can on. No can + V-twin = Twisted Evil Shocked Laughing Thumbs Up Mr. Green

Anyway, was wondering how much it would fuck my bike up by taking it round the block, and to what rpm you could take it? I head tells my it's a bad idea, but god, it would be so loud Very Happy
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:24 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could take it up to the limiter.

McGee's got videos on his youtube of him on his GSXR600 with no can.

It's just not something I'd be doing long term.
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Davie_G71
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PostPosted: 09:49 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
My SRAD sounds evil with no end can. I reckon you'd get the book thrown at you if caught.
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Suitor_Stu
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PostPosted: 12:13 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Chris, I think he's asking more along the lines of will the subsequent leaning out of the mixture caused by removing the can do any damage to his bike rather than the noise.

Applejoe, I'm not an expert by any means and I don't know how your bike is fueled (FI or Carb) but I would imagine that your biggest problem may be actually getting it running in that state. As said it will lean the mix out, and coupled with a cold engine this will make the lean problem worse, so you may get misfires when first riding. Besides, I wouldn't want to be taking it to the limiter straight from a cold start anyway, so I'd say there's more chance of doing damage to your bike through this than the mix being lean...

Will fully admit defeat though if someone else puts a more convincing case forward!
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 12:26 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
it wont do anything, think for a minute what that thing attatched to the exhaust is acctualy called....

silencer. its designed to cut down the noise, and on newer bikes clean emmisions.

if its fi, i cold understand it running lean, the injectors inject a set ammount of fuel, if this is being pulled through and straight out the exhaust, it will be running lean.

if its carbed the fuel / air is in a constant ratio, so what ever is pulled out the exhaust is replaced by something of the same ratio.

if that makes sence.


Yes, the silencer silences, but the quieter an exhaust the more resistance there is to the flow of gas. So by removing the can you're allowing more air to flow through. It will make it run leaner than before.

Carbs don't quite work like that, they can still only flow a given amount of fuel, if you want more fuel past a given point you'll need bigger jets.

O, and on the carbs thing you may want to tell Dynojet that they have been selling people kits they don't need for their carbs for the best part of 15 years.
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Faldo
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I was running a Racefit slash cut 'can' on my ZX10R, which is basically running with no can. Very loud, made no difference to performance, but did shoot flames when giving it some stick.

I did ~1500 miles with this on 'til I dropped it, with no adverse effects whatsoever.

https://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/yellaninja/ZX10r/DSCN0579.jpg

https://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/yellaninja/ZX10r/th_DSCN0584.jpg
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Suitor_Stu
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
it wont do anything, think for a minute what that thing attached to the exhaust is actually called....silencer.


Like I said I don't know this particular bike well, I only know what I have experienced before.

The silencer on my bike was fairly restrictive (as I guess most stock systems are) so actually did restrict the exhaust flow. Having nothing there means more flow out the engine which can tend to mean sucking more air in due to the difference in pressure caused inside the chamber. This will affect the fuel to air ratio if there is a fixed amount of fuel allowed by the carb - thus bike runs lean. I'm not entirely up on how FI works, but I would imagine that if there is any sort of feedback loop from the exhaust (lambda sensor) then this may be able to slightly compensate for it being slightly lean meaning that it may be better? I'm not entirely sure.

Either way, I would think that the revving from cold would prob do more damage to the bike.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 12:33 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:


yeh, that makes sence also though, but shouldnt the fact that more air is flowing, mean the air is flowing faster, causing more of a vacuum against the jet, drawing more fuel. up until a givern point.


Yes, but you'll probably find that given point isn't very far away from what they jet it to in normal use if you see what I mean.

Much like the correction factor of an FI bike. They can correct a little bit, but not very much.
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Suitor_Stu
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
yeh, that makes sence also though, but shouldnt the fact that more air is flowing, mean the air is flowing faster, causing more of a vacuum against the jet, drawing more fuel. up until a givern point.


And from what I gather, the jets are set so that for a given air flow the exact (ish obviously, because you'll never get it spot on) amount of fuel is to be sucked through them. Increasing the flow can't physically suck any more through the hole in the jet for a given time period. That's as I understand it anyway.
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Suitor_Stu
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
haha, you're too quick for me Big_Ham!
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suitor_Stu wrote:
I'm not entirely up on how FI works, but I would imagine that if there is any sort of feedback loop from the exhaust (lambda sensor) then this may be able to slightly compensate for it being slightly lean meaning that it may be better? I'm not entirely sure.


Most modern FI bikes do have a lamba sensor like cars. This allows the bike to correct the fuelling by "sniffing" the exhaust gases.

However they can only correct within a very small amount, and are emissions driven as oppose to performance driven.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
o, and I do try. Laughing
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AppleJoe
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's carbed, by the way Smile
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Considered it myself, im not overly worried by the legal side of things, mechanicly speaking, i took my bike out for a half hour hoon with no ill effects, long term i have been warned that it can cause problems with the exhaust valve and could even lead to a holed piston Confused Im not going to be the one to test the theory!

CHR15 did you rejet that or leave it standard?

c_dug
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virus
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
c_dug wrote:
Considered it myself, im not overly worried by the legal side of things, mechanicly speaking, i took my bike out for a half hour hoon with no ill effects, long term i have been warned that it can cause problems with the exhaust valve and could even lead to a holed piston Confused Im not going to be the one to test the theory!

CHR15 did you rejet that or leave it standard?

c_dug


The burnt exhaust valves/holed piston routine is caused by running too lean, all things said though (and I think everything been covered, lambada sensor etc etc...) my logic is, if it doesn't hold back/pink/make bad noises when your riding, then the fueling isn't bad enough to do any damage, at least not in the short term.


hell, I put a kerker on my GPZ750 a while ago, instead of the restrictive motad nexxus can and actually gained 30 miles more to the tank. Ive not changed the jetting, seen as I'm going on the 'running well, jetting is fine' logic.




running straight through does make a hell of a noise though, especially when its just a 52mm link pipe on the end of the downpipes, it seems to echo in there. Laughing


Cheers
John
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:

if its fi, i cold understand it running lean, the injectors inject a set ammount of fuel, if this is being pulled through and straight out the exhaust, it will be running lean.

if its carbed the fuel / air is in a constant ratio, so what ever is pulled out the exhaust is replaced by something of the same ratio.

if that makes sence.


No offense, but that is the biggest load of bollocks I've seen on this forum since the "My Mito 125 can do 130mph" thread.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:

ok, well you explain to me why it causes the bike to run lean.


Because an engine is a simple input output device. A pump if you will. If you alter the flow of the output, the input flow will increase. Carburettors are designed to meter fuel very carefully, and so increasing the airflow into the engine will not increase the fuel flow into the engine by an appreciable amount. This causes the engine to run lean.

If this was not the case, I could run my Triumph on a single 25mm carb and it would still run OK. I could probably do the calculations with the bernoulli equation but I can't be bothered to be honest.
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Suitor_Stu
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
the bernoulli equation


Incidentally, and totally off topic I know but let me have this one, the theory of the bernoulli principle (and it's application into the cardiovascular system, is how your doc is able to use the inflatable cuff to measure your Blood pressure.

Right, continue back to the topic please.
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Ben.
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
ah, that makes more sence. so me thinking that you could alter the amount of fuel passing through a jet is crap, which is why you have to change the jet.
Karma given

on a totaly random topic, do bikes ever use carbs that arnt, cv, flatsides or normal round slides ?


you can change the fuel flow, but you need to do it manually, the bikes doesnt magically do it for you when you take the can off...

you can change the fuel flow up to a point, then you need a bigger jet.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Davie_G71 wrote:
My SRAD sounds evil with no end can. I reckon you'd get the book thrown at you if caught.


MY VFR was pretty much no end can. Only got pulled over in 3-4 months of riding like that once! And they just told me to change it ASAP. Laughing

I think I was dead lucky though!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=w_470_0pYwQ

The little 400 in the background

https://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c282/M0LOT0V/BCF%20Rideouts/Jdloyalroyalscrash_0003.jpg?t=1242251692
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh and btw, you need back pressure. It runs quite shit like that. Once I got a proper endcan on there with back pressure it felt so much more rideable.

Although I was noticed by everyone! Laughing jdloyalroyal said it was like a police escort!
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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McGee
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
That video is a hoax.

GoPro + record on high volume distorts the sound.

I want a better sound clip Crying or Very sad Wink
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 13 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Too late. Good exhaust is on there. But Matthie, jdloyalroyal, Big-Ham, blackwolf and hurricanehollis can testify to how gloriously loud it was Laughing
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 07:53 - 14 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, it was ear splitting loud, especially in tunnels.
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Blackwolf
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 14 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
i was following and i had plugs in, they made no differnce.. untill i was infront Wink
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