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Insurance to ride other bikes

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M1ke
Ped Boi



Joined: 11 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 24 May 2009    Post subject: Insurance to ride other bikes Reply with quote

I am currently renewing my insurance and am looking into getting cover to ride other motorbikes.

Does anyone know if the cover to ride other motorbikes requires said motorbike that is not owned by you to be insured by the owner? Or could you technically ride a bike that has not been insured for years under your policy that allows use of other bikes?

i have read the policy details - I have attached a screen cap to show all that it mentions.
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Scouse
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 24 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's enough you's to say that the other bikes would need to be insured.

EDIT: But then again when re-reading part b) it does give the impression that you would be covered Confused
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trevoriv
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PostPosted: 22:34 - 24 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not this again. The vehicle must be insured under it's own policy.

Section B on that screen cap only indemnifies you meaning that if you injure another person then the insurance will deal with that claim. This is not the same as being insured, the vehicle must be insured under it's own policy in order for it to be legally allowed to travel on public highways.

This driving other bikes extension merely provides the indemnity to you as the rider for damages to a third party.
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Scouse
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 24 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a case of ring them up and ask specifically.
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M1ke
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PostPosted: 04:19 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:
Not this again. The vehicle must be insured under it's own policy.



Mr Trev, I know this question is asked frequently, however I am still not 100% sure, and do not want to take the risk of 6 points!

Mr Scouse, I think you are correct, I shall give them a ring. I was hoping someone on here may have experienced a claim first hand being 'insured on any bike.'
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 10:45 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:
This is not the same as being insured, the vehicle must be insured under it's own policy in order for it to be legally allowed to travel on public highways.

This driving other bikes extension merely provides the indemnity to you as the rider for damages to a third party.

I don't believe you've come with any 'proof' of this? If you did in a previous thread, a link to it again would be great Thumbs Up.

However, from what I remember, sickpup and probably various others listed cases where what you state is not in fact true.

When I claimed on my car insurance for using another third party, they didn't ask to see the owner's docs. However, presumably could have easily checked, thanks to the rather lax data security the government has around the database.
Note Mike, that while it may well be legal, you would still get stopped by ANPR systems. Phoning your insurance they may well not advise you in relation to what their document legally states; not only are insurance-company staff regularly useless, but they'll often take the easiest route.
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arry
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a very grey area and not something I would risk.

trevoriv is right as far as I'm concerned. If you ride a bike under DOC that's not insured elsewhere, the second you step off that bike you and the owner of it commit an offence, you for leaving a vehicle not covered by insurance on the public highway, and them for allowing it to be left there.

So, in effect, whilst you can ride the bike, the fact that you can't legally get off of it at any point should mean that when you're stopped over by Plod you can't get off the bike as they ask you to - and since they can reasonably request that you do that, to the wrong copper it COULD be construed as an offence. In any case you'd not be able to leave the bike anywhere other than in your garage at any point whilst you weren't on it.

That's my take on it anyway. Worth the risk bearing in mind how cheap bikes are to insure? I wouldn't take the chance, personally.
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stirlinggaz
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi,
i have just this month renewed my insurance.
after being ripped off umpteen times, i decided to try & get "other bikes" coverage.
simply for the times when my mates drop there bikes off & say "its broken".
as i have a few points, i was never able to take said bikes on public roads for test runs-essential for my project gamma (plug chops etc) & some other occasions.
i found it quite difficult to get a policy that suited me, as most quotes i was getting were around the £180-240 mark, fully comp, but they would not let me ride other bikes.
after a few e-mails & a couple of phone calls, i played the waiting game.
because there will ALWAYS be contact from some insurance companies desperate to get your cash.
i just had to be firm & say i wanted fully comp on my daily ride & at least 3rd party coverage on ANY other bike (though it does specify that it should be of "equivilent capacity/value & within my licence entitlements" wtf??)
& if they couldnt offer me that, "good bye" & the phone went down.
i played them off against each other & eventually got what i wanted.
i got it at the same price (its actually a bit cheaper) as the original cheapest quote.
but i had to keep on repeating myself over & over again.
"i dont care if it costs a little bit more, i dont care if i have to have a larger excess, i WANT to be able to ride other bikes now & again & do it legally WITHOUT getting another policy, without specifying every bike".
as soon as you ask for something a wee bit different, the call centre monkeys get a bit confused (no offence intended to anyone who works in a call centre, i work in call centre type evironment as well, lol)
anyway to cut a long story short, it IS possible but you will have to specifically ask for it & study your policy document carefully, as my 1st document diddnt have any mention of this "add-on"!
i had to phone them back up & say the had mis-sold me a policy & i was reporting them to the ombudsman, then hang up.
(those 0870 numbers dont qualify for free calls & cost a bloody fortune)
10 minutes later i got a call back from a "supervisor" who threw in free break down recovery & sent out an amendment to my policy a few days later.
but for those 1st couple of days, if i had any accidents on any other bike, i would have probably been f*cked!
cheers,
GAZ
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trevoriv
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'riding other bikes' extension purely gives you as the rider indemnity to third parties whilst riding a vehicle that doesnt belong to you, it isnt an insurance policy in it's own right and you have no insurable interest in a vehicle that is not owned by you.

A bike must be listed on the MID to be road legal and therefore needs to be insured in it's own right.

If the vehicle is not insured in it's own right you will 100% get an IN10 (driving without insurance) conviction if stopped by the plod.

I do police witness statements on behalf of an insurance company on a daily basis.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 12:15 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:

A bike must be listed on the MID to be road legal and therefore needs to be insured in it's own right.

If the vehicle is not insured in it's own right you will 100% get an IN10 (driving without insurance) conviction if stopped by the plod.

Please provide some evidence of this.
I especially do not at all believe that having a vehicle listed on the MID is a legal requirement.
Enough people on here have been stopped by the police because their vehicle wasn't on the MID and haven't suffered anything but a bit of wasted time from it.
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trevoriv
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motor Insurance Database

The Fourth Directive is designed to improve the claims process for EU third parties claiming against an Insurer based in another EU Member State.

One of the main requirements is that a claimant should be able to identify the relevant Insurer from the registration number of a vehicle. The UK insurance industry has concluded that the only realistic means of meeting this requirement is to develop a database of all vehicles and their associated insurance policies.

In summary:

* It is a legal requirement that motor insurance policy details are recorded on the motor insurance database.
* Motor Insurers have to provide basic policy information on all their policies.
* Policyholders have to provide vehicle information within 14 days of acquiring a vehicle.
* A £5,000 fine may be imposed for non-compliance.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 14:30 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those details seem to be related to what insurance companies have to do, not anything to with a vehicle being road legal or not.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

A vehicle doesn't have to be on the MID for the insurance to be valid. Most trade policies would fall foul of this.

Any vehicle "used" on the road must be insured. The cover to ride other bikes should cover you when riding it.

However when you stop riding it then it gets more complicated. Comes down to what the legal interpretation is of the vehicle being used. It could be argued that having parked it you are still the user and hence your insurance covers it. Equally it could be argued that as you are no longer riding it the person who is using it is the owner / registered keeper who is now storing it on the road.

Hence you might be covered or you might not depending on who the law is interpreted.

All the best

Keith
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M1ke
Ped Boi



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PostPosted: 14:50 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all of your replies, I opted to go with the ride other bikes policy for an extra 5er Wink

At least I am now ok for the odd test ride, I am going to go through the policy document with a fine tooth comb when it turns up just incase it has some get out clause.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

My father was once driving his sister's car and he got a stop, they both had to produce documents at the cop shop (this was before the database they have now). Problem was she was away on holiday and couldn't produce her insurance documents and they took her to court, where she was aquitted of failing to produce because of the particular circumstances. The whole reason of requiring her to produce was because when my father parked the car and got out his insurance no longer covered it to be kept on the road. This is what they said in court.
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trevoriv
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PostPosted: 15:54 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:

* It is a legal requirement that motor insurance policy details are recorded on the motor insurance database.


If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.

Motor trade polices still require all of the vehicles to be added to the MID by the policyholder the only slight loophole being that if it is to be covered on the trade policy for less than 14 days then technically it doesnt need to be added to the MID for that policy.

If a vehicle is on the road and not on the MID the police will instantly seize the vehicle as not insured and will destroy it after 7 days.

Every single insurance company has to add any vehicles they insure to the MID (for large policies like fleets and trade policies sometimes the policyholder is responsible for updating the MID).

Following the 4th and 5th EU motor directives the MID now suceeds a motor certificate or covernote in terms of proof of insurance.

If an insurance company doesnt comply with the MID then the MIB/MIIC will close that insurance company down instantly.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 16:07 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:
If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.


Not true. Not being on the MID is not proof of a vehicle not being insured.

You can even still be self insured with a large deposit.

All the best

Keith
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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

you aint riding mine Wink
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 16:36 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:

If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.

Again, it seems that this is just what you have been told by your insurance company for their own ends.
You don't seem to have any proof that UK law has been changed to what you claim.
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M1ke
Ped Boi



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PostPosted: 17:27 - 25 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
you aint riding mine Wink


Maybe not when you are looking Wink
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The Disapproving Brit
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 26 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:
If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.


Sir, you appear to be talking bollocks. If you have a link to a government website (opsi.gov.uk for example) that proves your point, please post it.
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trevoriv
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 27 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
trevoriv wrote:

If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.

Again, it seems that this is just what you have been told by your insurance company for their own ends.
You don't seem to have any proof that UK law has been changed to what you claim.


As a senior commercial motor underwriter for one of the worlds largest insurance companies acting as non-official liaison between the insurer, the police and the MIIC/MIB I have a fair understanding of the importance of the MID.

If the police stop you and you produce a covernote/motor certificate however your vehicle is not on the MID the police are allowed to take your vehicle as uninsured. The idea being that fake certs and dodgy covernotes are not uncommon. Obviously we ask the police to use some common sense and ring the insurance company if its not on the MID but a cert/covernote is produced.

Yes you can put down a bond with the goverment under the RTA however the amount is quite large, from memory I think it's £100,000 with a proff of further funding - this is generally used by the armed forces etc for when they seize vehicles.

For more information please see: https://www.mib.org.uk/Motor+Insurance+Database/en/Continuous+Insurance+Enforcement/default.htm
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 21:45 - 27 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:
If the police stop you and you produce a covernote/motor certificate however your vehicle is not on the MID the police are allowed to take your vehicle as uninsured. The idea being that fake certs and dodgy covernotes are not uncommon. Obviously we ask the police to use some common sense and ring the insurance company if its not on the MID but a cert/covernote is produced.


The police can only seize it if they have reasonable grounds for believing it not to be insured. The MID database is flawed (and they know it, about 5% error rate I think is admitted), hence basing a decision purely on that basis would not appear to be reasonable grounds if they were presented with a cover note. If the police are acting beyond their power is for the courts to decide, not what the police claim.

trevoriv wrote:
Yes you can put down a bond with the goverment under the RTA however the amount is quite large, from memory I think it's £100,000 with a proff of further funding - this is generally used by the armed forces etc for when they seize vehicles.


Half a million pounds, and anyone can do it.

All the best

Keith
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multijoy
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 27 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:

If a vehicle isn't on the MID it isnt insured. End of.


Bollocks. If I've entered into a contract with my insurance company, I'm insured. If the tin-pot DB the insurance industry are touting to all and sundry doesn't work, that so isn't my problem.

trevoriv wrote:

If a vehicle is on the road and not on the MID the police will instantly seize the vehicle as not insured and will destroy it after 7 days.


"M'lud, even though the plaintiff produced an insurance certificate, we decided to crush his car because a trade database without any assurance, oversight or certification was inorrect"

Yeah, good luck with that.

trevoriv wrote:

Every single insurance company has to add any vehicles they insure to the MID (for large policies like fleets and trade policies sometimes the policyholder is responsible for updating the MID).


A database that, ostensibly, can cause property to be taken by the police and destroyed, administered by the end users themselves, with no government oversight? And I thought the project I'm working on was a bit extreme in it's scope!

trevoriv wrote:

Following the 4th and 5th EU motor directives the MID now suceeds a motor certificate or covernote in terms of proof of insurance.


Link plz.

trevoriv wrote:

If an insurance company doesnt comply with the MID then the MIB/MIIC will close that insurance company down instantly.


A trade association, self policing? That sounds effective...
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 22:32 - 27 May 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevoriv wrote:

Thanks for the link, though it's the link contained with in that page that is more interesting.

That page specifies:
Quote:
Once the necessary regulations are drawn up, it will be an offence to be the keeper of a vehicle which is not covered by a specified policy or by a blanket policy (“open cover contract”) covering vehicles owned by the policyholder or other party named in the policy.


And the government link says...
Quote:
New offences

1. 20. Causing death by careless, or inconsiderate, driving
2. 21. Causing death by driving: unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers
3. 22. Offence of keeping vehicle which does not meet insurance requirements

So, this seems to relate specifically to the owner of a vehicle not having that vehicle insured and does not at all seem to talk about penalising those that do use third party insurance on an un-insured vehicle.
It seems it's the same issues discussed here: https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=165425 .
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