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Dischord
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: The biggest question of them all... Reply with quote

Does space end? I've been looking at peoples views online and came across a pretty good answer -

Current science indicates that there is no end to space, however since we are acclimated to "borders" from conception throughout our entire existence this concept is impossible to realistically grasp. Until mankind or their machines can confirm/disprove this we can only think in understandable terms, such as "How big does the ocean seem to a microorganism which spends its entire life cycle in a couple of cubic meters of water far out at sea?"

I know this is pretty heavy for a tuesday evening but anyone got any views/thoughts on the subject?
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The999Kid
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space has boundaries but appears limitless as it is roughly spherical, think of it as walking round an absolute sphere whilst suffering long term memory loss.... you can keep walking for as long as you like so it feels like you're never going to reach the end... but in reality you;ve just walked a couple of laps round the outside.

hope that helps..
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would imagine it as something that doesn't have an end, it has no properties so how can it. Space is simply a gap, so there is as much space as there are gaps between objects. I don't imagine any one could charter all of space or ever truly understand the sheer magnitude of space as a whole.

I've always imagined though that if you were to reach an "edge" of space you would simply drop back at another point in space where the edges contact. I've never really thought of space as a 3D object, but something much stranger that allows one point in space to contact another which wouldn't be logical in our reality. I don't think we can ever understand space properly because we aren't designed too. We take 2 dimensional information and process it into 3 dimensional information to create a world we can understand, I don't think we can get a real idea of space because we simply couldn't see it in the way that we would need too.
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

If memory serves then 'A brief history of time' covers this well.

Go forth. I forget what it was so can't summarise.
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Tonka
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProvectusIncurro wrote:
Space has boundaries but appears limitless as it is roughly spherical, think of it as walking round an absolute sphere whilst suffering long term memory loss.... you can keep walking for as long as you like so it feels like you're never going to reach the end... but in reality you;ve just walked a couple of laps round the outside.

hope that helps..


Blimey! Shocked You've made us all sound like we're all really 'goldfish' Laughing
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 09 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest watching these videos to help gain a better understanding of the dimentions of the universe, i found it very helpfull.

There are many things we will never understand, certainly not in our lifetimes, i believe whether the universe has a physical end or not is one of them.

There is another phenomenom where atoms seperated by huge distances effect one-another, read this for a better discription

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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a little known fact that the entire universe as we know it, is actually small enough to fit in a glass of water.





Oops. Done it again. Always confusing "It's a little know fact..." with "Sometimes when I'm stoned I think..."
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DEN MONKEY
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Re: The biggest question of them all... Reply with quote

Dischord wrote:


Current science indicates that there is no end to space, however since we are acclimated to "borders" from conception throughout our entire existence this concept is impossible to realistically grasp. Until mankind or their machines can confirm/disprove this we can only think in understandable terms, such as "How big does the ocean seem to a microorganism which spends its entire life cycle in a couple of cubic meters of water far out at sea?"


This would be my basic response however not put so succinctly.

I agree that the reason for my belief that there is an end to space can be simply put down to the fact that I have no real comprehension, nor experience of anything which continues for ever, regardless of its form, structure or composition.

However if space does have an end then one must pose the question, What is after that ?
Since pretty much all that we know tends to lend itself to repetition in some form or anothe, whether it be from life in it's most basic and minute form to the vastness and multitude of known or hypothesized galaxies.

I will tell you though that this exact question has bothered me for some time and I hate the prospect of not knowing.
For the most part if I'm curious about other things I can simply go learn about them or ask someone else who knows.
I may not always understand the explanation but at least i can get an answer.

Between this one and who created god ( yes I have faith) I will be asking the same questions until I die with no answers.
Maybe then I might get some

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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Re: The biggest question of them all... Reply with quote

Dischord wrote:
Does space end?


Bah, that's easy. I want to know where my plectrums go.
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Luke_Retrofly
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the bottom of the washing machine Thumbs Up

as for the universe, its like Asteroids, you leave one side and enter in the opposite Very Happy
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the grim reaper
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point of view is that, for all intents and purposes, space is infinite, simply because space IS a gap, created by being able to see the light from the billions of suns and, as light travels at, well, you know, the speed of light and we can't then the light will always get there first to illuminate the nothing that was there before.

For all you ccreationists out there: In the beginning there was nothing, so God created light, there was still nothing but at least you could see it. Same thing.

Cheers

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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 10 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I not hear somewhere that its shaped like a doughnut?

Basically (like the asteroid game) top and bottom of the is going round the girth and left to right (and vice versa) is going round the 'length' of the doughnut.

Personally I think it ends in cling film.

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Fortuna
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

If space is infinate, then so is time.
If time is infinite, there was never a point where it began and will never be one where it finishes.
You could create a time machine to go back in time, but would never reach the start. Go forward and you'd never reach the end.
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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortuna wrote:
If space is infinate, then so is time.
If time is infinite, there was never a point where it began and will never be one where it finishes.
You could create a time machine to go back in time, but would never reach the start. Go forward and you'd never reach the end.


Not necessarily. We measure time in a specific way from a specific point (the Big Bang.) So for our own purposes it did start but may go on infinitely. In terms of 'our' universe, the theory is, it will get to a point were it'll start contracting until you get a super-mega massive lump, (scientific term. Wink ). Once that gets to a certain mass (not unlike a star going supernova) it'll all blow up again.

Basically the universe has been expanding (big bang) and contracting (ummm, big shrink?) infinitely and will continue to do so for ever.

Or something, that's a theory... None of the above precludes it actually being surrounded by cling film though.

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bazza
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space has no end or beginning. It's shaped like this:

x = cos(u)*(cos(u/2)*(sqrt_2+cos(v))+(sin(u/2)*sin(v)*cos(v)))

y = sin(u)*(cos(u/2)*(sqrt_2+cos(v))+(sin(u/2)*sin(v)*cos(v)))

z = -1*sin(u/2)*(sqrt_2+cos(v))+cos(u/2)*sin(v)*cos(v)

As eny fule kno.
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alliamc
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are theories that the universe is always expanding and contracting. So from the big bang moment the universe expands until it reaches its maximum size, and then it begins to collapse on itself until it reaches the big bang to move into its expansion phase. The scientists following this theory believe we are currently expanding, but if this theory is true then the possibility of ever meeting aliens is near on impossible as the expansion is happening at such a high speed that our distance from the nearest solar systems is multiplying in minutes.
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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

alliamc wrote:
There are theories that the universe is always expanding and contracting. So from the big bang moment the universe expands until it reaches its maximum size, and then it begins to collapse on itself until it reaches the big bang to move into its expansion phase. The scientists following this theory believe we are currently expanding, but if this theory is true then the possibility of ever meeting aliens is near on impossible as the expansion is happening at such a high speed that our distance from the nearest solar systems is multiplying in minutes.


Not necessarily, its all relative. A solar system or nearby star might be moving roughly on a parallel course to us. Also, because the distances are so vast, its just not an issue.

For example, our closest star (not including the sun) is Proxima centuri, its about 4.2 light years away. Even if we could travel at the S of L, it would still take 4.2 years to get there. One assumes the universe isn't expanding at anything like the S of L, we might be travelling away from other objects but not at a speed that really matters.

There are quasi-stellar objects around 13 billion light years away (the furthest objects visible) detected by the Hubble Space telescope. Thats about as old as stuff gets...

Other wise, what bazza said. Which still doesn't preclude the cling film.

Wink
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 22:04 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I presume they havent found an epicentre for whatever caused the expansion?

Just wondering since if they can tell we are moving, and have some sort of point in space to judge that against, could they not use the two points and the direction and speed they are moving away from eachother, to work out where they both started.

Might answer alot of questions as to where exactly we came from...

I know actualy traveling there, or even sending a probe there is beyond us, but it would be cool to know where "there" is Laughing Laughing

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Chriss
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PostPosted: 22:14 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Terry Pratchett said: In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
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Flip
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 11 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chriss wrote:
Like Terry Pratchett said: In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.


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Fortuna
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PostPosted: 02:23 - 12 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

alliamc wrote:
There are theories that the universe is always expanding and contracting. So from the big bang moment the universe expands until it reaches its maximum size, and then it begins to collapse on itself until it reaches the big bang to move into its expansion phase. The scientists following this theory believe we are currently expanding, but if this theory is true then the possibility of ever meeting aliens is near on impossible as the expansion is happening at such a high speed that our distance from the nearest solar systems is multiplying in minutes.

We are going to collide with Andromeda, it's relative to what's racing with us. The Magellanic clouds will probably pass through the Milky Way at some point too.
The expanding contracting theory still fits in with my previous theory. An observer in the same spot would just see the universe expanding and contracting......forever.
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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 12 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its just as well for the cling film, or it would just keep expanding ad infinitum...

Wink
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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 12 Jun 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa_broon74 wrote:
Its just as well for the cling film, or it would just keep expanding ad infinitum...

Wink

Not only that, but what there is also stays fresh for longer. Thumbs Up
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