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| cestrian |
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cestrian
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 Posted: 20:53 - 06 Jul 2009  Post subject: Remember the Soldier who got beaten up? |
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Silver
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| Marcg868 |
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Marcg868
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Hetzer
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Posted: 23:27 - 06 Jul 2009  Post subject: |
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HAH!
Suck it up, you poisonous bags of fucking FILTH!  
____________________
"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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Posted: 23:48 - 06 Jul 2009  Post subject: |
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| bwfc4eva86 wrote: | Does it really take 3 Wigan tossers to restrain one man on his own?
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Yes, especially if he's drunk.
See the numerous threads on these forums that systematically rubbish any attempt to prove otherwise.
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Police are overpaid thugs in uniform. |
*Yawn*
Good to see that the commentary Mirror footage embedded in the Times story was so unbiased - oh, whoops, I meant was horrifically biased - and factually inaccurate too.
It was couched in deliberately graphic tones that seemed to find the most bizarre things shocking - "The three officers moved forward as one" - well frakk me sideways, you'd think they worked together or something?! Or the bit where she claims that an officer stopped hitting him because car drivers were watching - despite the fact the strikes stopped when the guy was cuffed, and the fact that it's quite natural to look around at traffic moving a few feet away from you when you're kneeling in the middle of the road at night!
Once again we see distraction strikes (rained down on the arm and shoulder as a colleague is clearly struggling to get the squaddie's left arm into a back hammer) described as an unprovoked assault when they are a legally accepted method of bringing such a confrontation to an end as quickly as possible, with a minimum of broken bones.
The only bit that causes me any concern at all is where the Mirror's journalist accuses the (20 stone - snigger) PC Lightfoot of scraping the dude's head on the floor. That said, despite mentioning the fact that he takes a big old nibble out of one of the hapless plod, the voice-over seems to ignore the possibility that he was moving his own head, and that fattie was struggling to control it.
Still, I don't expect many on here to bother analysing the footage rationally, as it's much more fun to have a poke at the rozzers.
They've been charged, the case will be heard in court like anyone else's. |
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Silver
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| Mudskipper |
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Mudskipper
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Hetzer
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 10:50 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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| Silver wrote: | You often provide a sensible viewpoint,
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but I'm a little curious how smacking someone's facing into the ground and punching him can be justied? |
Punches or strikes to the upper limbs are taught as a lawful and proportionate method of numbing or distracting the limb so that it can be placed in a 'lock', or in cuffs. There is a nerve cluster in the shoulder where the tubby copper appears to be striking - that is also a proven and taught technique for releasing the arm. As soon as the copper closest to the camera cuffs the suspect's left arm and stops struggling, the strikes stop - it's got nothing to do with the tubby copper being worried about people watching.
As for the head - that needs to be held securely, especially if the guy is trying to nibble people. I don't think it's possible to tell from that video whether the PC is smashing the guys head down on his own, or whether the guy is moving his head around and the copper is trying to keep it down on the floor where it needs to be.
I've been in dozens of use of force situations where the person being restrained has intentionally battered his own head on the floor in order to make allegations about officers later on - or just because he's bonkers/high/enjoys the rush. I say this not so much to suggest that it's the case here, but to point out that these situations often involve actions and motivations that 'normal' people wouldn't understand or recognise, as they wouldn't ever think like that themselves. In my experience, magistrates and judges usually fall into that group, as their almost-invariably privileged upper-middle class background insulates them from the realities of such situations.
Obviously, if the copper has intentionally dragged the fella's face across tarmac out of spite, that's wholly disproportionate to the circumstances, as while he wasn't yet in locks - he was restrained by the 3 cops. I assume that's one of the points that they'll be exploring in court...... |
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Mister James
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| Raffles |
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Raffles
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| superstacker |
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superstacker
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| Posted: 11:45 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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Luckily for us, the average British Serviceman who's seen action in the middle east, will always get the headlines when his country turns against him 
As much as it doesn't give the Officers involved any excuse, when you spend every saturday night dealing with violent drunk people, it's probably very likely you can go into "autopilot" and at the sense of any trouble, start bundling people into the back of vans.
Unfortunately they picked a respected war veteran this time, who actually has some credability. |
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Mister James
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superstacker
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Mister James
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Raffles
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Silver
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Mister James
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| Posted: 13:22 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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| Silver wrote: |
I actually expect it's more to do with the fact that the Police officers provided statements that they were assaulted, which (I expect) painted a picture which differs somewhat from the video. That much is pretty clear by the sentance handed down at the first trial.
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As I've already suggested, a layman's opinion of what the video represents isn't necessarily accurate. Likewise, the officers' statements about what happened might not necessarily be picture perfect, affected as they no doubt were by adrenalin and the tunnel vision that tear-ups always induce. That doesn't mean to say there were lying, and it's rather cheeky for the judge to imply so without further qualification.
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Now, in retrospect, the best argument for assault is the police saying he was biting them.
Can that be proved?
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One assumes that it was, as he was convicted of it.
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Does it warrant a suspended custodial sentance?
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Biting is one of the most painful, dangerous and disgusting things that one human can do to another. Having had cheeky foreign gents try to do it to me knowing that they harbour deadly viruses, I will do ANYTHING to stop someone taking a big ol' nibble out of me. I've had friends spend months of crippling anti-viral medications because they let their guard slip and a HIV/Hep. infected weasel took a chunk out of them.
So yes, it does, to my mind.
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Can the soldier have any claim of self defence when he felt blows being inflicted on him in the first instance? |
By definition he was resisting arrest, and thus the police were well within their rights to use force on him. The blows were thus probably legal and proportionate to the situation, and so a claim of self defence would not go down very well at court. That said, we can probably all identify with the fella having had too much to drink, and not being totally with it. I'm not sure that biting would be classed as anything like a defensive move anyway, as against 3 'attackers' who already have you pinned to the floor it isn't going to be effective - it looks more like spite to me. |
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| Hetzer |
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Hetzer
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| Posted: 13:31 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: |
Punches or strikes to the upper limbs are taught as a lawful and proportionate method of numbing or distracting the limb so that it can be placed in a 'lock', or in cuffs... |
And there you have it, criminal assault dressed up as legitimate and actually accepted by the majority of civillians these days.
It ain't fucking legitimate! Three pigs, already have the guy pinned face-down on the deck, and you somehow think it's fucking legitimate to be punchimng him? In nerve-clusters no less? Because he's wriggling or resisting them cuffing him? There're THREE OF THEM, he's pinned, take his arms, twist them if need be, and get the cuffs on him. There is NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR BLOWS!!!
A blow in response to wriggling, twisting, tensing, is a CRIMINAL FUCKING ASSAULT! No justification for it WHATSO FUCKING EVER. And if you think some high-up pig writing it down in rules & regs as a legitimate tactic actually makes it fucking lawful you're a fucking WANKER.
If the guy is on his feet and striking blows, the pig gets to use blows in return. If the guy is down, but still striking blows, the pig gets to use blows in return. If the guy is down and striking blows, but there is more than one pig on him, the pigs do NOT get to use blows, they can fucking well deal with him with restraining holds. If the guy is huge and/or too powerful, and is using blows, baton or tazer him.
This entire culture of multiple pigs pinning a person down and STILL using blows on him is UN FUCKING ACCEPTABLE CRIMINAL ASSAULT, PERIOD!!!
"Oh look, we have him pinned down, he ain't going anywhere, much less hurting anyone, but let's PUNCH THE SHIT OUT OF HIM, KNEEL VICIOUSLY ON HIS HEAD AND NECK and OTHERWISE CAUSE HIM AS MUCH PAIN AS POSSIBLE. For daring to be drunk and gobbing-off at us. Coz we is the law and above everyone else."
Scum like that need to be walked up to and shot in the face. For being vicious, spineless, sub-human FILTH.  
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Silver
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| Posted: 13:39 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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| Mister James wrote: | As I've already suggested, a layman's opinion of what the video represents isn't necessarily accurate. Likewise, the officers' statements about what happened might not necessarily be picture perfect, affected as they no doubt were by adrenalin and the tunnel vision that tear-ups always induce. That doesn't mean to say there were lying, and it's rather cheeky for the judge to imply so without further qualification. |
Maybe so, but you should be able to rely on the officers' version of events to be objective and impartial. Given that the defendant was drunk and there were three officers, it is not surprising that the soldier lost when it comes down to one party's word against another's. Having not seen the officers' statements it's impossible to imply that they were implicitly lying, rather than putting forward an opinion. However, given the original sentance (and the judge's subsequent comments) it's reasonable to assume there are 'inaccuracies', at best.
| Mister James wrote: | One assumes that it was, as he was convicted of it. |
And that conviction was quashed on the back of the video, so I assume it isn't.
| Mister James wrote: | Biting is one of the most painful, dangerous and disgusting things that one human can do to another. Having had cheeky foreign gents try to do it to me knowing that they harbour deadly viruses, I will do ANYTHING to stop someone taking a big ol' nibble out of me. I've had friends spend months of crippling anti-viral medications because they let their guard slip and a HIV/Hep. infected weasel took a chunk out of them. So yes, it does, to my mind. |
I don't disagree it's nasty and is obviously assault. It's not prison sentance material though, to my mind.
Consider another point; did he really bite them?
| Mister James wrote: | By definition he was resisting arrest, and thus the police were well within their rights to use force on him. The blows were thus probably legal and proportionate to the situation, and so a claim of self defence would not go down very well at court. |
That kind of depends on which started first, which can't very well be shown in the video.
EDIT: He fell over and was bundled on. Not sure he got much of a chance to "resist arrest" 
| Mister James wrote: | That said, we can probably all identify with the fella having had too much to drink, and not being totally with it. I'm not sure that biting would be classed as anything like a defensive move anyway, as against 3 'attackers' who already have you pinned to the floor it isn't going to be effective - it looks more like spite to me. |
If he's pinned to the ground, what else is there he can do? Maybe, biting someone's leg will move them off balance and allow you to free an arm with which you can then 'defend' yourself more appropriately.
Last edited by Silver on 13:47 - 07 Jul 2009; edited 1 time in total |
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Mushroom
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| Posted: 13:40 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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Raffles
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| Mister James |
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Mister James
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| Posted: 14:08 - 07 Jul 2009 Post subject: |
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| Hetzer wrote: |
It ain't fucking legitimate! Three pigs, already have the guy pinned face-down on the deck, and you somehow think it's fucking legitimate to be punchimng him? In nerve-clusters no less? Because he's wriggling or resisting them cuffing him? There're THREE OF THEM, he's pinned, take his arms, twist them if need be, and get the cuffs on him. There is NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR BLOWS!!!
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You're wrong - a blow to a motor nerve cluster IS less, as it achieves the required result without lasting damage. Struggling with a drunken squaddied (one assumes he was quite fit, which I suspect the 20st PC Lightfoot wasn't) for control of his arms is going to injure him - 'period'. A couple of blows to a nerve cluster, he gives up the arm, the cuffs go on, the struggle is over - as shown by the CCTV.
Ideally you wouldn't need to use such techniques, I assume that in many situations they aren't required - that was certainly the case for me. That said, I occasionally came across people who were so hyped up or high that I simply could not bend their arm or apply effective pain compliance.
A nerve-strike is a far more humane method of getting their arm into a back hammer than wrenching their arm until their muscles tear or something breaks. If you think otherwise, then YOU are a wanker - or at least desperately naive. As you purport to have a similar level of experience of tear-ups in custody as me, I find that hard to believe.
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And if you think some high-up pig writing it down in rules & regs as a legitimate tactic actually makes it fucking lawful you're a fucking WANKER.
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Police techniques are put together by their OST instructors in cooperation with legal advice, and are regularly tested in court.
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If the guy is huge and/or too powerful, and is using blows, baton or tazer him.
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So you'd prefer to see one of these 3 people breaking out an Asp on this guy? I think not.
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Scum like that need to be walked up to and shot in the face. For being vicious, spineless, sub-human FILTH. |
*yawn* |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 16 years, 221 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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