Re-Training

Drax · Scooby Slapper Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Karma :

What do you think of the idea that re-training/testing should be carried out for bikers/car drivers instead of speed cameras
(Kevin Ash. MCN)

Personally, I think that re-assessing your skills is a brilliant idea
(At no cost preferably but unlikely)
Sad

Many of us passed our test years ago & have never updated our bad habits<grin>

Ideas/thought welcome Thumbs Up

Wafer_Thin_Ham · Super Spammer Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Karma :

Re-Testing no.

Since test standard isn't a very good way to drive.

I would prefer it if you were "assessed" as you're more likely to get a clear indication of someone's normal driving than you would if it were a test situation.
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Devils Advocate · World Chat Champion Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Karma :

i wouldn`t like the idea of being forced to pay for it every x-amount of years....but i do agree it`s a good idea.
I reckon the accident % would drop substantially if it were implemented.

Wafer_Thin_Ham · Super Spammer Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Karma :

The problem would be that people would simply revert to test standard for the test/assessment, then go back to normal afterwards. So wouldn't really impact unpon driving standards, unless you can get a true reflection of their normal driving.
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Ste · Not Work Safe Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :

Drax · Scooby Slapper Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Karma :

WildGoose · White Van Man Joined: 20 Mar 2002 Karma :

Given the choice above, i'd take my chances with the speed cameras.

Under no circumstances should re-testing/evaluation/assesment of any sort be brought in. It's already been observed that a lot of people think the so called 'standard' is a load of rubbish and the quicker it is unlearned the better. So what would be the point?

The long established rospa/IAM shite is already there as an option for people that wish to do all that. Very tedious it is too.

It doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and a majority of others I shouldn't wonder.

Compulsary periodic training has just been brought in for lorry drivers, and has been in for bus drivers for the past year. It stipulates 35 hours training must be taken every 5 years, in blocks of at least 7 hours. If you don't comply, you stand to lose your entitlement to drive commericially, although this cannot start to be enforced until 2013, so that will be interesting to see.

It's already widely criticised, and is expensive both in direct costs and lost time and is of questionable benefit in most peoples' eyes.
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Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

If it was an assessment then that would mean a massive increase in people doing the testing. More economically useless people.

Not sure it would help greatly.

Think cameras are basically useless, but not sure a short assessment would be even vaguely more useful but would be more expensive.

Although I suppose that installing a new / replacement camera is a large capital cost, while employing someone to assess driver isn't a capital expense so is easier to hide, and you can charge those being assessed for the privalege.

Think what is needed is a FAR smaller number of prosecutions for motoring offences and for that small number to be carefully targetted.

All the best

Keith
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Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

A licence should only be valid for 5 years. Re test every five years would at least make sure everyone is riding/driving to a basic requirement let's face it we all know it is a basic standard for a test. I see so many times the poor driving standards on the road, I don't mean the straight lining of bends or the use of gears instead of brakes etc, I'm talking bog standard poor driving skills. I have seen it many times, even with my pupils. Basics of knowing where to drive, keeping safe distances, attitude to driving,

When I had to take another driving test to become an ADI, the standard required was higher, involved motorways and lasted an hour. ( before you ask I had one minor ) To get me up to the standard only took two hours, most of which was reminding me not to wave other road users on, leaving more room to slow down and the use of mirrors.

The people I see pass thier tests, I know will make poor drivers, some reasons being, attitude, judgement skills, confidence. All add up to big dents. look how many posts there are on just this forum, where people don't know if they can do something or been wiped out by another road user. As long as we have people who treat vehicles like a washing machine or fridge, we will always have the need to retest. Not everyone is a passionate as most on here about driving.riding and it shows on the road.
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Devils Advocate · World Chat Champion Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Karma :

^^^^give that man a cigar Thumbs Up

Perhaps if it was named a "refresher course" instead of a "re-test"....more of you might see the positive side to it.
Let`s face it....the roads are fuckin lethal these days and 50% of drivers/riders are a danger to themselves anyway...let alone others.....so refreshing peoples skills (or removing them from the roads if they`re THAT bad) can only benefit the good drivers/riders amongst us. Thumbs Up

Ste · Not Work Safe Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :

Re testing wouldn't serve much purpose and it'd be stupid to take some ones license away just because they couldn't do the manoeuvres to test standard.

Retesting would mean the DSA would need lots more staff which would be expensive.

If someone is a dangerous driver then the powers are already there to remove them from the roads, retesting would just unnecessarily remove lots of safe drivers from the roads. If someone fails their 5 year retest, but for the last five years they've built their life around having a driving license, what's meant to happens then, they lose their job because they couldn't parallel park well enough?

Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

Not sure that poor low speed manoevres are that much of a safety issue, if it is just at the level of it taking them 10 attempts to get out of / into a parking space.

That something is paid for by the fees is not acceptable. The DVLA is mainly funded by the fees and fines it charges, doesn't mean that half billion couldn't have been better spent by the people who have to deal with them.

The traffic police if used sensibly would be in a far better position to check crap real driving, rather than just looking at someone jumping through some planned hoops for a test. The approach would need to be based on real ability, not some kind of obsession with handing out enough tickets though.

Plenty of people are not good at tests, and knowing that should you fail you become as popular with your employer as someone who has just been caught for drink driving hardly relieves the stress.

I would agree with the test being changed. Not sure if needs to be harder, just more realistic. Quite possibly 2~3 times the length so more chance to see the people really driving rather than a short time watching them perform some specified and easily trained for manoevres.

All the best

Keith
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Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

I'm glad you think manouvres are easily trained for. I and other ADIs have pupils who would argue that point. The low speed man's are not just hoop jumping, thay are the foundation blocks of so much more. Think of the road rage that can be reduce by someone being able to do a man' in one move and not ten.

Most crap driving is not nor will be picked up by the police. There are so many examples I see every day that police man power would have to be increased 1000% in order just to observe it never mind deal it.

All test changes are seen as making it harder, just look at the new bike test.

I know many people are not good at tests, but tough titty, deal it. if you were good enough to pass your test the first time around you should be as good if not better on a re test. Don't forget, your employer would have to do the test too so things will be seen in a better light, perhaps the employer pressure would make the employee focus more on thier driving.

It always amazes me that you can question someones sexuality, honesty, opinions, religion, sexual prowes, education, but as soon as you go on to driving anyone who questions it becomes the worst thing in society.
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Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

Plenty of drivers are crap. And suspect almost all people are at the "currates egg" level of driving (good in places). Trouble is that what is important to one is irrelevant to another (hence motorway driving appears to be irrelevant to those in control of the tests).

The manoevres are just basic level. Show nothing about atttude or real control on the road. Like looking at a buildings foundations and declaring it is all OK with barely a glance at anything above ground.

While there are loads of examples of crap driving, what are the chances of actually seeing that driving on some half hour of tested driving which someone is concentrating for. Hence why I suggest the test is far longer to actually see people driving after they have had plenty of time to relax, not just test them on some small manoevres that are just objectively easily checked. Basically check what is important, not what is easy to check.

A 5 yearly check would result in a massive amount of extra cost for everyone (and about a 10 fold increase in the number of driving examiners and their supporting bureaucracy). Not sure it would actually have any great effect on accident rates (hardly like those who have just had all this instruction and their tests are paragons of driving).

All the best

Keith

All the best

Keith
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Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

But if you knew you had to retake your test every 5 years you may look at keeping your standard or improving it. No one would say that those who have just passed are paragons of driving, far from it, but many who have been driving for a while have no virtues at all.

Extra costs, yes there will be, but as soon as we start treating driving as a priviledge and not a right perhaps we may start in reducing posts on this site and many others of people getting knocked off, for gods sake we even have a post on the use a bloody horn or another one about round abouts and these people are the ones who don't want re testing. I know why and I suspect those against it are in the same boat.
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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=183077

Posted as I type. Rolling Eyes

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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

So the end result for you is to have no tests but just go out on the road and get experience? Attitudes to driving will not change and apparently can't be checked so what bother?
Oh and it may cost and someone may get upset if they fail so lets not have it.

And you wonder why the roads are how they are?

Roll on the next spill counter post.
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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

Far from it. I just see short tests on limited points as useless. You can't test the attitudes so the tests are unlikely to make attitudes change.

The traffic police could deal with the small number who are an issue, but unforutnatly they have mostly been thrown away and replaced with cameras against speeding. Trouble is the cameras are limited in function and only check a simple basic thing. Just like basic driving tests.

30m drivers being retested every 5 years is 6m tests a year. At £50 a shot that is £300m. You could employ an awful lot of traffic coppers for that with a far greater effect if they were used sensibly (rather than just meaured on how many tickets they hand out).

My view is the roads are partly like they are due to dodgy tests based on what is easily and cheaply measured (just a series of hoops to jump through) rather than what is important, and just adding more easily measured and cheap tests won't make things any better.

All the best

Keith
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Skudd · Super Spammer Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Karma :

So what hoops would get rid of and what more meaningful criteria would you test on?

Please let me know as I have started a debate on an ADI forum regarding your views on the test and how us ADIs are doing such a poor job on a futile, hoop jumping, insignificant activity.
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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

You appear to be taking it personally. If you are doing your job then you are teaching people to drive rather than just to get them through the test in the min number of lessons (and I appreciate that it is a balancing act, as if you take too many lessons to teach them to drive you will be seen as worse than someone who just rams them through the test). The current test idea is only testing them on a fraction of what you are teaching them and what they need to know.

I have already said what I think is needed. A FAR longer test which gives the pupils the opportunity to make more errors in their normal driving (and also recover from nerves), and so not just have them marked essentially on a couple of basic manoevres and a few minutes driving between them.

I would be open to suggestions that the driving instructors ongoing assessment of the learner could be part of the final assessment, but not sure if you would be happy with dodgy Daves Driving school getting extra business as he would put in a good word for any of his candidates.

I would also prefer to see the fairly major change of some kind of motorway testing as part of getting a full licence.

I do not see some basic test every 5 years as being useful, let alone reasonably cost efficient. The only reason that you seem to have is that if someone is tested at some point then their attitude to driving might magically improve. Personally I suspect that failing someone who has been driving for the last 5 years without any accidents (maybe just by luck) would just bring the test into disrepute.

All the best

Keith
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