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advice needed on buying "older" dogs

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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: advice needed on buying "older" dogs Reply with quote
ok ive got a dog (old tyme staffordshire bull) and ive had others too but i always bought as pups before so haven`t had to think about this until now.

I want to get a litter or two off my male and so i need to buy a bitch soon but not sure wether to buy a female pup and wait a couple of years or buy an adult and breed straight away.
What are your opinions on buying an older dog thats been brought up by someone else in a good home?do you think it`d be able to adapt and be trustworthy in a new environment?
As most of you know these dogs can be a bit stubborn boisterous and aggressive on occassions so the last thing i want to do is take on a bitch that wont listen to me,or worse,go for me if i try to discipline it.

If i get an older bitch she wont be accepted as an indoor pet though she`ll live outside in a nice kennel (but WILL be treated kindly etc).
She is strictly for breeding...nothing more.
If i got a pup it`d be home reared indoors.

opinions please chaps...what age of dog do you think i should get for this. (but no moral crusades about the rights/wrongs of breeding just for money!)
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BanditJeff
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its because of people breeding Staffies as a way of making a fast buck, that dog rescue centres are inundated with unwanted Staffies.
I got my Staffie from the RSPCA and its criminal the amount of dogs of this breed that are abandoned.
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
BanditJeff wrote:
Its because of people breeding Staffies as a way of making a fast buck, that dog rescue centres are inundated with unwanted Staffies.
I got my Staffie from the RSPCA and its criminal the amount of dogs of this breed that are abandoned.


max power wrote:
(but no moral crusades about the rights/wrongs of breeding just for money!).


Not quite the help i was looking for but thanks for not reading what i said anyway Rolling Eyes

I`m not some young desperate chav knocking out shitty little staffs with no papers for 200 quid.I`ve got a lovely KC reg old tyme,full pedigree, and it`d be a sin to not breed off him.
I`ll be doing it properly like a breeder would and if the pups dont sell first time i`ll keep them not dump them in a field. Rolling Eyes
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
max power wrote:
I`ve got a lovely KC reg old tyme,full pedigree, and it`d be a sin to not breed off him.


Sorry to be Captain Pedantic, but surely the terms 'KC reg', 'old tyme' and 'full pedigree' are mutually exclusive?
AFAIK the KC does not recognise (what you term as) 'old tyme' Staffords, because they do not fit the KC standard for a Staff, and no 'old tyme' standard for Staffs exists in the KC.
Do you have actual official KC papers for him, or are you going on what you were told by the breeders you got him from?

Personally, i don't care about the KC or their standards - i've got a non-KC Staff, which conforms to what you would term an 'old tyme' Staff (i.e. a little longer in limb etc, not one of the little KC 'barrel' show Staffs i see trotting around).

As for your plans to breed him, I would imagine that Stinkwheel would probably be the best person to ask on here, but here's my thoughts anyway:
Personally, i think it a little cruel to buy a bitch and stick her in the garden just to be used as a puppy machine. I don't know the temperament of your dog, nor do i know your attitude towards training (you state you fear the bitch going for you if you discipline it, which suggests to me you are a little uncertain in your disposition), but by the sounds of it i fear there may be dominance related aggression on the cards.
Have you thought of offering your dog up for stud and arranging to keep one of the pups (no risk to you of being left with an unwanted litter, destined for a burlap sack and the canal), or finding an owner with a female staff who wants to breed theirs?
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you want more staffys, adopt some from a dogs home. There are too many in there to even consider breeding your own.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you want a new dog, then do keep your bitch in a kennel outside (you're meant to have water available for them all the time but its optional IMO), have a strict discipline regime so she knows who is boss (bitches are pack animals), and if she's strictly for breeding then you'll need to make sure to avoid unwanted litters of offspring (if this happens then you'll have to move them all to your basement to prevent them escaping, do some research on Josef Fritzl, he's an inspiration to us all, and I think there's a family owned sound proofing company called Fritzl who're 24 years good).

Do all that and you should be able to keep your new dog and puppies inside so that you can raise them to became well adjusted friendly dogs ready to go to loving family homes. Thumbs Up
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The Original Muzza
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Re: advice needed on buying "older" dogs Reply with quote
max power wrote:
(but no moral crusades about the rights/wrongs of breeding just for money!)


How about the rights/wrongs of (in)breeding for the sake of pedigree?
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
mistergixer wrote:

Sorry to be Captain Pedantic, but surely the terms 'KC reg', 'old tyme' and 'full pedigree' are mutually exclusive?
AFAIK the KC does not recognise (what you term as) 'old tyme' Staffords, because they do not fit the KC standard for a Staff, and no 'old tyme' standard for Staffs exists in the KC.
Do you have actual official KC papers for him, or are you going on what you were told by the breeders you got him from?


No problem,i`ll explain.
He`s KC registered as a staffordshire bull terrier (i`ve got the papers) but when i come to advertise the pups it`ll say old tyme because that`s a name used among molloser breeders for a particular type of staff that was interbred with another well known type of "bull" breed over the years.For the sake of pedantics...he`s half staff/half pitt bull.

mistergixer wrote:
Personally, i don't care about the KC or their standards - i've got a non-KC Staff, which conforms to what you would term an 'old tyme' Staff (i.e. a little longer in limb etc, not one of the little KC 'barrel' show Staffs i see trotting around).


ah so you know the breed....nice one.
When i first got him i knew one day i was gonna use him so the KC reg was something i knew i was gonna need.You can still sell pups without KC reg but the price is usually lower thats all.
Potential buyers demand the papers if youre asking top dollar....like i will be.


mistergixer wrote:
Personally, i think it a little cruel to buy a bitch and stick her in the garden just to be used as a puppy machine. I don't know the temperament of your dog, nor do i know your attitude towards training (you state you fear the bitch going for you if you discipline it, which suggests to me you are a little uncertain in your disposition), but by the sounds of it i fear there may be dominance related aggression on the cards.
Have you thought of offering your dog up for stud and arranging to keep one of the pups (no risk to you of being left with an unwanted litter, destined for a burlap sack and the canal), or finding an owner with a female staff who wants to breed theirs?


I dont see it as cruel keeping the dog outside.If i go down that route i`d be looking for one that had been raised that way anyway.Lots of dogs are kept outside of the home and still treated as pets mate.They just dont get to LIVE inside thats all.

You`re right about my fear...i`ve always been scared of dogs thats why i`m worried about taking on a fully grown adult with it`s own mind.

My male`s a bonny looking dog...but i wouldnt think he`d make it as a show/stud dog and that`s not what i wanted to do with him anyway.
I`ve got plans...this is only the beginning. Wink
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Re: advice needed on buying "older" dogs Reply with quote
Muzza wrote:
max power wrote:
(but no moral crusades about the rights/wrongs of breeding just for money!)


How about the rights/wrongs of (in)breeding for the sake of pedigree?


Can i go on my usual rant about Bulldogs now?
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
If you want a new dog, then do keep your bitch in a kennel outside (you're meant to have water available for them all the time but its optional IMO), have a strict discipline regime so she knows who is boss (bitches are pack animals), and if she's strictly for breeding then you'll need to make sure to avoid unwanted litters of offspring (if this happens then you'll have to move them all to your basement to prevent them escaping, do some research on Josef Fritzl, he's an inspiration to us all, and I think there's a family owned sound proofing company called Fritzl who're 24 years good).

Do all that and you should be able to keep your new dog and puppies inside so that you can raise them to became well adjusted friendly dogs ready to go to loving family homes. Thumbs Up


Cheers for that.
I just want to clarify for those that think this breeding bitch will just get shoved into a kennel and left there all day/everyday....SHE WONT!
She`ll get treated just as well as all our other animals do (horses,chickens,dogs,) with regular playtime and walks if she wants it.The only difference between her and our other dogs is that she`ll sleep in the kennel run that`s all.Whats so bad about that?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Would you keep the pups outside in the kennel with the mum or would you bring the mum inside with them?
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The Original Muzza
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Re: advice needed on buying "older" dogs Reply with quote
mistergixer wrote:

Can i go on my usual rant about Bulldogs now?


Please do, I think the Bulldog is the perfect example of the wrongs of close breeding an animal.
But people won't learn, just because something like a staffie or a border collie is healthy in this generation.
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Would you keep the pups outside in the kennel with the mum or would you bring the mum inside with them?


That`s something i`d have to think about when the time comes but i expect i`d leave them all outside if it was possible.
They could come in the house for a bit of fun and to get them socialised,but the rest of the time theyd be in their kennel runs or let loose in a massive field round the back.
Ideally i`d just like to get the pups socialised and ready for their new homes so i`d do whatever needed to be done..

They wont be turning my house into a fucking toilet though....been through that before and it aint happening again!!! Laughing
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
So has nobody here got any experience in taking on an older dog then Question
or even an adolescent one (1-2 years old) Question
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Paivi
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do you actually know anything about puppies and breeding dogs?
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BanditJeff
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 17 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
max power wrote:
So has nobody here got any experience in taking on an older dog then Question
or even an adolescent one (1-2 years old) Question


I expect many people on here have experience of taking on an older dog, myself included. But most people take on an older dog from a rescue center to give it a home, look after it and for it to be a pet as part of the family.
Maybe you should ask if anyone has any experience of taking on an older dog to use it as a breeding machine to gain maximum financial gain from it.
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 08:03 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paivi wrote:
Do you actually know anything about puppies and breeding dogs?


Puppies....i know about as much as anyone else whose bought one as a pet and thats all.Between me and my mrs...we`ve had 4 puppies over the years.

Breeding...i know nothing at all about it but i`m doing lots of research and looking into every aspect of it before i start.This isnt some quick fix for a bit of cash.Eventually i hope to turn it into a small family business and develop some nice bloodlines of the breed.

Not sure why you think any of that`s relevant though.No matter what you do in this life you always have to start somewhere and learn as time goes on.

Last edited by Devils Advocate on 08:14 - 18 Oct 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 08:09 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
BanditJeff wrote:
max power wrote:
So has nobody here got any experience in taking on an older dog then Question
or even an adolescent one (1-2 years old) Question


I expect many people on here have experience of taking on an older dog, myself included. But most people take on an older dog from a rescue center to give it a home, look after it and for it to be a pet as part of the family.
Maybe you should ask if anyone has any experience of taking on an older dog to use it as a breeding machine to gain maximum financial gain from it.


Well if you can tell me what you went through getting the dog adjusted to a new home that`d be helpful (i.e was it an easy process or hard work?)

Dont think i`ll bother asking about the breeding though coz i`m sensing a lot of attitude and bad vibes from most of the replies so far.Not got time to deal with peoples issues about wether they like the idea or not.If they want to think the worst thats upto them.
Rolling Eyes
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 08:48 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
max power wrote:

No problem,i`ll explain.
He`s KC registered as a staffordshire bull terrier (i`ve got the papers) but when i come to advertise the pups it`ll say old tyme because that`s a name used among molloser breeders for a particular type of staff that was interbred with another well known type of "bull" breed over the years.For the sake of pedantics...he`s half staff/half pitt bull.



Sorry, i don't understand that - in order for a breeder to register a pup, they must list the sire and dam in order for checkable pedigree. So, both parents must have been pedigree staffs in order for your dog to be KC registered as a Staff.
If that's the case, then your dog can't be an 'old tyme', or a SBT x APBT - because the KC does not recognise these breeds.
It's either pedigree SBT, or not.

It is my understanding that 'old tyme' refers to SBT's which conform to the (now unofficial) pre-1935 KC 'standard', not a SBT which has been interbred with another breed (bull breed or otherwise).

Any chance you can post these papers up?? Are they pukka watermarked KC stuff?
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
mistergixer wrote:
max power wrote:

No problem,i`ll explain.
He`s KC registered as a staffordshire bull terrier (i`ve got the papers) but when i come to advertise the pups it`ll say old tyme because that`s a name used among molloser breeders for a particular type of staff that was interbred with another well known type of "bull" breed over the years.For the sake of pedantics...he`s half staff/half pitt bull.



Sorry, i don't understand that - in order for a breeder to register a pup, they must list the sire and dam in order for checkable pedigree. So, both parents must have been pedigree staffs in order for your dog to be KC registered as a Staff.
If that's the case, then your dog can't be an 'old tyme', or a SBT x APBT - because the KC does not recognise these breeds.
It's either pedigree SBT, or not.

It is my understanding that 'old tyme' refers to SBT's which conform to the (now unofficial) pre-1935 KC 'standard', not a SBT which has been interbred with another breed (bull breed or otherwise).

Any chance you can post these papers up?? Are they pukka watermarked KC stuff?


I`ve not looked at the papers for 4 years but i`ll dig them out later when i get back to the house.
They`re pukka though....just can`t honestly remember if theyre KC or UKC or SBTC or whatever.
It`s a complicated area defining staffs these days.The current KC standard is the short-legged type but that doesn`t mean the irish or amstaffs or old tymes are no longer pedigree staffs does it.
An old tyme staff refers to a taller staff with bloodlines from mastiffs,pitts etc (saw both parents of my dog and knew what they were straight away)...so i can honestly say he`s a full pedigree for an old tyme....and he`s still registered as a staff on his papers.

If you wanted to be really picky and precise with the breed definitions you would have to say that the regular staff (short legged) is an english staffordshire bull terrier and not just a staffordshire bull. (coz there`s so many different interbreeds within the term "staffordshire")
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
mistergixer wrote:


It is my understanding that 'old tyme' refers to SBT's which conform to the (now unofficial) pre-1935 KC 'standard', not a SBT which has been interbred with another breed (bull breed or otherwise).



Read this:

Prior to The Staffordshire bull terrier being recognised as a breed by the KC in 1935, when the Original Standard was written, one of the noticable differences between the Revised Standard "1948" and the Original was the clause pertaining to hieght, 15 to 18inches was the Oringinal 14 to 16inches was asked for in the Revised Standard. Not surprisingly not all followed the revised standard and many stayed true to the aspirations of the Original Standard and it's associated hieght to weight clause. This would be one explanation of Old Tyme Stafford.
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
max power wrote:

The current KC standard is the short-legged type but that doesn`t mean the irish or amstaffs or old tymes are no longer pedigree staffs does it.


Yes, it does mean that. Right or wrong, the KC controls pedigree in this country. If it's not KC, then it's not pedigree.

max power wrote:


An old tyme staff refers to a taller staff with bloodlines from mastiffs,pitts etc (saw both parents of my dog and knew what they were straight away)...so i can honestly say he`s a full pedigree for an old tyme....and he`s still registered as a staff on his papers.



No, it doesn't. Old Tyme refers to the pre-1935 'standard'. If your dog is from a mixed bloodline, he is not a KC pedigree.
If he's KC pedigree, then he's not 'Old Tyme' or any other sort of dog.
He cannot be both.

max power wrote:

If you wanted to be really picky and precise with the breed definitions you would have to say that the regular staff (short legged) is an english staffordshire bull terrier and not just a staffordshire bull. (coz there`s so many different interbreeds within the term "staffordshire")


No, i wouldn't, neither would the (UK)KC. They define it as 'Staffordshire Bull Terrier' only. All the other 'offshoots' (Amstaff, Irish etc) are not recognised by the KC. Here is a list of KC recognised Terrier breeds - note there is only one entry for SBT, and Irish, Amstaffs and 'old tyme' do not appear.
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Devils Advocate
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well i`ve had this conversation before with lots of other breed owners and there`s always different opinions on whats wrong/right.
Some say the same as me and others say the same as you so we`ll have to agree to disagree.

All i know is that when i advertise the pups they`ll be sold as old tyme staffs with MY interpretation of what that means.
I bought mine as an old tyme,his papers say he`s a staff,and i know his origins so to me thats what he is.The buyers will have to decide for themselves if its this type of staff they want.


Just out of interest,if it was you selling my pups (and both parents papers said they were staffs but they werent short legged) what exactly would you advertise them as when you knew they werent going to be the type of dog that some people consider to be a "staff". (i.e short legged/barrel shaped)

Question
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 18 Oct 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote
max power wrote:
Well i`ve had this conversation before with lots of other breed owners and there`s always different opinions on whats wrong/right.
Some say the same as me and others say the same as you so we`ll have to agree to disagree.


No, we'll have to agree that i'm right and you're wrong.
Wink

max power wrote:

All i know is that when i advertise the pups they`ll be sold as old tyme staffs with MY interpretation of what that means.


Doesn't that make the supposed old tyme 'standard' rather superfluous? I could call my Staff a Jack Russell if i wanted - it wouldn't make him one.
Personally, i think all this 'old tyme' stuff is a load of bollocks - it seems to have originated with the Bulldog breeders as a way of distancing themselves from the (horribly inbred and malformed) English Bulldog, and reverting back to what the dog was originally bred for.
For SBT's, the difference is pretty much a couple of inches in height, and that's about it - i don't see anything 'old tyme' about it. Also, the use of 'tyme' instead of 'time' is, to me, a load of pretentious old wank.

max power wrote:

Just out of interest,if it was you selling my pups (and both parents papers said they were staffs but they werent short legged) what exactly would you advertise them as when you knew they werent going to be the type of dog that some people consider to be a "staff". (i.e short legged/barrel shaped)


If i was running a puppy factory, i'd probably put some pretentious crap about them being 'ye olde tyme Stafforde', in the hope of luring in a few gullible punters who think they're getting something special and/or unique.
As i'm not, and never will be a puppy farmer, i'd list them as Staffordshire Bull Terriers, show pictures of the sire and dam, make no mention of pedigree or papers, and let people make their own minds up.
When i got my SBT, i got given some valuable advice from a certain bearded vet who frequents this forum - avoid pedigrees. I did, and have a fantastic specimen of a dog - the fact that he has no pedigree and no papers means absolutely fuck all to me. He is what he is, and that's that.

Stafford whoring time:

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/Andy_B_photos/PICT2016.jpg

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/Andy_B_photos/PICT1818.jpg

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/Andy_B_photos/PICT2073.jpg
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