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| gr82bthe1st |
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gr82bthe1st
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 Posted: 13:50 - 13 Nov 2009  Post subject: Age of criminal responsibility... |
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what do you think?
Currently set at 10 for UK.
I think its good that the gobshites can get a bit of punishment!
Clicky
The comments make for a more interesting read.
Touchy subject with regards to what punishement is acceptable, but at least it'll help make the trouble makers realise that they arent invincible.
Wanna hear some of your views!
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| Handsome |
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Handsome
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and
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and
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| Cigaro |
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Cigaro
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and
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Handsome
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| GhostRider |
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GhostRider
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| Posted: 14:59 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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It's a sad state of affairs when you are talking to a 12 year old kid and asking what he'll be doing in 5 years time and he shrugs his shoulders and says "probably be locked up ennit".
Kids do not give a fuck at that age, they haven't got the long sight to see the consequences of their actions, they see older kids getting locked up and coming back and carrying on, so how hard can it be?
Punishing a ten year old to the same extent one would punish an adult will not ever solve anything, the kids won't learn, if anything they'll feel more at a loss since they will spend the next few years learning how that, since they have a criminal record, they can say goodbye to the idea of employment. This will lead them into circles where they'll learn that by shifting an ounce of coke in a day, then can make more money than their parents monthly wage - so why bother busting their balls working?
Spiral effect comes to mind.
GhostRider
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| pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74
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| Posted: 16:28 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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I imagine that since children develop at differing speeds in terms of maturity and the ability to understand consequences, each case needs to be taken in isolation.
Even the worst 12 year old (for example) might know the difference between right & wrong but might not have the emotional maturity to use that knowledge on a day to day basis. It seems to me that knowing the difference between right and wrong when it comes to young folk is only really used in hindsight.
When you get older, I think you're better able to evaluate your actions in advance thus (potentially) staving off a unfortunate mistake.
Its the same with the age of consent thing. People mature at differing rates. Some kids are humping their brains out at 12 and 13 while others never give it a thought until they're in their forties... (I'm from the former category... No, really...)
I used to run a youth cafe years ago, we couldn't get C card status because we weren't allowed to hand them out to people under 16, our clientele were all under 16 but never-the-less, were rutting away like crazy all over the place.
Sometimes I get the impression the government wants to legislate but keeps pandering to what ever pressure group has an interest, be it religion, the left, the right, parent groups or wishy washy idealists who don't live in the real world. The end result is a fussy ill-focused policy that does no good.
In terms of punishment, again, it's down to individual cases. Some kids will respond to no holds barred barriers while others need to be hugged or something. The hard bit is trying to decide who is best served by what.
One thing I would always advocate though, is keeping the victim out of the process of deciding punishment, even more so if it's kids. Emotion should play no part in it.
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| Poseidon |
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Poseidon
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| Posted: 16:58 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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| NSR-AD wrote: | Because there's no He-Man on anymore... |
I was always more of a Thundercats fan myself!
On topic though, I know it's cliche, but I blame the parents. I find it no coincidence that hard-working respectable people typically raise hard working respectable children, whereas chavvy dole dossing scumbags raise little shits who contribute nothing to society. It's all about respect... Starting with self respect. My parents both worked hard when I was growing up. We were never rich and barely had any luxuries (no sky TV, no PC, no mobile phones etc). I was always told that you have to work to get rewards and that you wont always get what you want. I've seen families where 2 consecutive generations have never worked, and the younger of the 2 generations are now raising kids. They always had sky/cable, PC's, games consoles, widescreen/lcd tv's etc. What message does that send to your kids... Do fvck all and you get everything you want! Because nothing they have has been earned, they dont have any respect for it, nor do they have the self respect brought about by a job well done. Because of this they dont realise the true value of possessions (cars/mobilehpones/TV's/etc), i.e two weeks wages for a TV, they think nothing of taking/stealing it from someone else. There's no compassion in these people... and it all stems from the lazy fookers raising these kids.
I say punish the parents. Take away their TV/mobile phones/benefits/legs everytime one of their brats commits a crime. I have a 3week old son and I am of the opinion that his behaviour will be a direct result of how we raise him. Consequently I will accept responsibility if he becomes a thieving junkie with 4 kids and an arrest record for beating up grannies by the time he's 14, and should be punished accordingly, as it is me that would've failed him, not the other way around.
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| pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74
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| Posted: 17:32 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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Only thing I would add to the above (which I agree with, except the Thunder Cats thing... I was a child of Ullyses and Cities of Gold...)
Anyway, what I get from young folk these days is an overpowering cynicism. I think in terms of the wee shites you get running around, they are for their age incredibly hard bitten. I think that filters down from so many different areas, politicians who lie blatantly making parents cynical, over paid celebs, 'celebs' who really shouldn't be let out, let alone let on the TV, parents who have no time for their kids, screeching 24/7 media advertising, the internet, grasping pop stars...
The list is endless. I reckon some kids just can't handle all this input, their reaction is to get cynical and hard bitten and become ferocious little gits terrorising the environs in which they live.
I feel a bit sorry for the silent majority of young folk who just want to get on and maybe even excel, they get tarred with the same brush though. If I was a parent, I'd be as angry about that as I am about the trouble makers, I wouldn't my kids living with that stigma.
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| Devils Advocate |
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Devils Advocate
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| Handsome |
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Handsome
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Posted: 17:35 - 13 Nov 2009  Post subject: |
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I'm assuming people are getting the jist of my He-Man post, with regards to the social message at the end of the show, although Ullyses was a cracking cartoon  ...
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| pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74
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Posted: 17:46 - 13 Nov 2009  Post subject: |
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| max power wrote: | Age is irrelevant imo .
The child/teenager/whatever.. should be judged on the action/crime that they commited..and sentenced accordingly.
Diminished responsibilty due to lack of age/maturity shouldnt even come into it.
If a 5 year old maliciously stabbed someone with a knife,shot someone dead,or did something bizzare (like the jamie bulger case for example)..they should get the same sentence that an adult would get and one that fits the crime.
It always disturbs me that the bulger killers only did 8 years for psychotic torture and murder of a toddler...thats just fuckin ridiculous.
They`re both bad seeds and they should be doing life not walking the streets and having counselling sessions once a week.!
If a child is already mentally unstable enough to commit a heinous act at a young age......why show leniancy???
Lock the fuckers up before they get older and develop an even MORE twisted mind....and apportion some of the blame on the parents too.They can be locked up aswell!!!! |
Surely you'd agree though, if they didn't know what they were doing... If you had a kid, say aged 5 who threw a tantrum in nursery (or where ever it is 5 yo children go these days) and hit another child with the closest thing to hand, a chair for example. Would you agree to them being tried & sentenced as an adult?
I wouldn't. Motive or intent is still a big part in any criminal investigation, it needs to be taken into consideration. I agree, you get some bad eggs, but is it fair to condemn them for life for what is a childish act, however violent. Agreed, they should be punished, but not condemned, not at that age.
It's a side effect of being a child, emotion aren't as controlled, mistakes are made, some serious, most not. Arguably, most kids are mentally unstable, albeit not to the point of sociopathy. To criminalise them at such a young age would be unfair.
Even now, the police are getting involved in playground fights. What for? It's kids stuff, it's not for the courts unless it's really serious and there is definite criminal intent.
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| Devils Advocate |
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Devils Advocate
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| Posted: 17:57 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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| pa_broon74 wrote: |
Surely you'd agree though, if they didn't know what they were doing... If you had a kid, say aged 5 who threw a tantrum in nursery (or where ever it is 5 yo children go these days) and hit another child with the closest thing to hand, a chair for example. Would you agree to them being tried & sentenced as an adult? |
There`s a big difference between throwing a tantrum/being naughty and commiting serious crime.If a child of mine "crossed the line" i`d hand him/her over myself.
| pa_broon74 wrote: | I wouldn't. Motive or intent is still a big part in any criminal investigation, it needs to be taken into consideration. I agree, you get some bad eggs, but is it fair to condemn them for life for what is a childish act, however violent. Agreed, they should be punished, but not condemned, not at that age. |
Murder,attempted murder,and other serious offences that require a certain mental state ....are not childish acts.
| pa_broon74 wrote: | It's a side effect of being a child, emotion aren't as controlled, mistakes are made, some serious, most not. Arguably, most kids are mentally unstable, albeit not to the point of sociopathy. To criminalise them at such a young age would be unfair. |
I agree none of us were really balanced as children and we all did some strange things......but i just think there`s a line that,if crossed,should be taken more seriously. |
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| Ariel Badger |
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Ariel Badger
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| pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74
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| Posted: 18:16 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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I'm not doing the whole PPQR thing.
So I'll just say I disagree. Any act done by a child is a childish act simply because it was carried out by a child. That doesn't mitigate the act itself or it's consequences, but it needs to be recognised. And before you make it, I won't accept the argument that assault or even murder is purely an adult act. It is if it's carried out by one, but not if it's carried out by a child and crucially, it doesn't make that child an adult, if anything it does the opposite calls into question their maturity.
With that in mind, you need to identify why they did it, you have to in order to apportion responsibility.
The system you suggest is straight out of the dark ages. Would you for example imprison a mentally ill person who carried out an illegal act because they weren't able to differentiate between right or wrong?
Or put in its simplest form; would you agree to your own off-spring being imprisoned even although you know for a fact, they don't have a decent grasp of right or wrong because they just haven't figured it out yet and even if they had, in a fit of childish pique, they forgot?
Again, I think not. You'd essentially be imprisoning them for being a child because that is what kids do; act out of emotion as opposed to reason, (although adults have a problem with that too.)
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| lostboy |
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lostboy
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| Handsome |
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Handsome
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| Devils Advocate |
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Devils Advocate
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| Posted: 18:53 - 13 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
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| pa_broon74 wrote: | I'm not doing the whole PPQR thing.
So I'll just say I disagree. Any act done by a child is a childish act simply because it was carried out by a child. That doesn't mitigate the act itself or it's consequences, but it needs to be recognised. And before you make it, I won't accept the argument that assault or even murder is purely an adult act. It is if it's carried out by one, but not if it's carried out by a child and crucially, it doesn't make that child an adult, if anything it does the opposite calls into question their maturity. |
I wasnt going to say what you thought i would
I agree with most of what you said up there^^^ but it`s the punishment for commiting such an act we disagree on.
| pa_broon74 wrote: | With that in mind, you need to identify why they did it, you have to in order to apportion responsibility.
The system you suggest is straight out of the dark ages. Would you for example imprison a mentally ill person who carried out an illegal act because they weren't able to differentiate between right or wrong? |
Yes it might seem a bit medieval but the current system and methods dont work do they.If you cross the line,you should be taken out of society permanantly....not counselled about why you did it until you show remorse and then be let out again in your so-called "reformed" state.
If i wanted things to go back to the dark ages..i`d be saying hang them,burn them,or kill them.
As for the mentally ill person,presuming you mean someone of a senile state and not in full control of their facultys,that person should be put somewhere secure.Maybe not imprisoned,but definately under close 24 hour observation if they pose a threat.Again though,it depends on the crime/act commited and i`mnot saying ALL people with mental health issues should be locked away.Just the ones who pose a serious threat to society.
i
| pa_broon74 wrote: | Or put in its simplest form; would you agree to your own off-spring being imprisoned even although you know for a fact, they don't have a decent grasp of right or wrong because they just haven't figured it out yet and even if they had, in a fit of childish pique, they forgot? |
Depends what he/she did.
If they were getting into trouble,fighting,doing petty crime,mixed up in drugs,etc etc i wouldnt want them to be harshly punished for what i consider to be a "phase" of life.I`d hope i could work through it with them and bring them out on the other side in those instances.
But...if they maliciously killed,raped,tortured,etc...i`d wash my hands of them the moment i found out and i`d hope they were put away for the rest of their natural lives.
Some people might choose to stand by their kids no matter what they do...but i wouldnt.
Same goes for my dogs....if one attacked me or caused serious harm to someone in a fit of evil rage ....i`d make sure they got the "got to sleep forever" needle asap .
The only time i`d consider leniancy in serious crime situations (like murder/attempted murder/extreme violence) would be when the act was related to affairs of the heart/emotional stuff. |
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| lostboy |
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lostboy
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| Kickstart |
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Kickstart
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 16 years, 303 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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