Are bikes getting harder to work on?

[sickpup]

Spent today doing the Valves on the ER6F work bike and it's taken about 6 hours so far and still isn't finished, only two shims needed changing but both cams had to come out to time it back up.

Now to even get to the valves I had to do the following...

1. Screen off.

2. Both fairing infill panels off.

3. Clock cover off.

4. Belly pan off.

5. Right hand fairing off.

6. Seat off.

7. Tank off.

8. Air box assembly off.

9. Injector bodies off.

10. Rocker cover heat shield off.

11. Crank cover inspection hatches off.Rocker cover off.

12. Rocker cover off.

I realise this is a fully faired bike but I think having to take the screen and clock surround off to get a side fairing panel off is going to the extreme a bit. So what do you think about your bike and the bikes you have worked on, are they getting harder to do?

[hmmmnz]

that doesnt sound too bad,

i did the clearances on my xz400 and i had to

1 take seat off
2 take tank off
3 unbolt air box
4 unbolt carbs
5 undo rad hoses
6 unbot rad fairing
7 unbolt rad
8 unbolt top engine mount
and that was even before i remove the 2 rocker covers and its a naked bike

and i had to change all bar 1 shim so all 4 cams had to come out
ad thats on a 1982 bike
____________________
the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[Ingah]

I have relatively little experience, but i do expect they will get complicated if they aren't at the moment, the amount of times i've heard mechanics complain along the lines of "cars these days, so complicated you need a laptop to fix anything". But bikes do appear to be slowly copying cars and gaining complexity in the way of things like ABS (a good thing imo), and fuel injection (not such a good thing imo, as i roughly know where i am with a carb...) I really hope the line is drawn somewhere though, as i wouldn't enjoy having to take my bike and my (future) car to a mechanic because i haven't got the fancy software.

I've kept it very simple, starting with a CG125 (invented in 1970s), seemingly widely aknowledged as the easiest bike to work on, and now have a CB500 (1990s) which again is largely simple, although the valve clearances are more complicated than on the older CG125 engine design (so i've left them alone). To be fair, this could siomply be because it's necessary for a bigger engine or something like that though.

Wouldn't really fancy trying to work on a newer sports bike, with all this here fancy stuff to go wrong, and fairings to remove.

I'm surprised to hear it's such a job on the ER6F - i was under the impression it was a newbie-friendly bike (therefore generally easy?)
____________________
-- Ingah

[chris-red]

Try doing the spark plugs on a TDM,

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/chris-red/my%20pics/21012009122.jpg

This is after removing both side panels, both inner panels, both mid panels, tank, seat and airbox. See the orange and green wires slightly left of center? behind that you may just be able to see one of the HT leads. Don't even trying to get to the other one. It's the only bike I know that could probably justify 2 hours dealer labour to change the plugs. The S4 has twice as many and I could probably do it in 30/45 mins.
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.

[temeluchus]

It takes 25 minutes to adjust the valves and set the points gap on my Dnepr.
____________________
Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[Mystery]

from what i've seen i would say so. i know a guy who was working in Ferrari and it took these guys about 2 days just to fix a fault with the speakers and audio takes the p1ss i reckon
____________________
Carbon knuckles assure you maximum protect against debris and unfortunate accidents or if someone cuts you off, their side mirror.Mopeds are like chubby chicks.. they are really fun to ride until you're friends catch you on one

[hmmmnz]

my mz500 is the easiest bike ever (rotax 500 lump)(excluding aircooled piston port 2 strokes)
it has a cam belt, and takes about 5 mins to change that,
valve cleances can be done in less than 10mins and only require you to remove a couple of little plates,
you can remove the whole head and barrel in about 15mins tops,

gotta be why the british army uses the same lump in their bikes,
____________________
the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[Blau Zedong]

It used to be just compact sportsbikes like 400's that were a twat to work on but it appears to be a growing trend.

As an example, from memory this is what has to happen to do the valves on a GK73A GSXR400 (the valves themselves are locknut thank god)

Tail unit off

Tank off

Fairing off

Carbs and airbox off

Drain coolant

Remove one coil

Remove Thermostat housing

Then you can maybe think about lifting the rocker box top.
____________________
18:54:48 Rob Fzs: jews don't give away stuff for free

18:54:59 Rob Fzs: unless its their clothes/ hair/ golden teeth

[Smooth]

They're definitely more awkward than bikes were in the past.

It's one thing having to remove the bodywork, but I'm not sure how having coded injectors, immobilisers and the like would be helpful if the bike broke down in the Gobi desert (Charley Boorman's Dakar book has a lot about trying to make a BMW X5 suitable for desert use, and it still caused problems.)

I appreciate a lot of complexity is down to (getting around) emissions legislation, but it's a shame to have made motorbikes so complicated.
____________________
TDM850

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

I think they are staying pretty similar, just getting more difficult in different ways.
____________________
My Flickr

[stinkwheel]

I think there is less rigmarole with the VFR even. Just need to remove the fairing middles, tank, airbox and radiator for that. There are two cylinder heads and 16 valves to deal with but they were surprisingly easy to get at.

Apparently the 800s are a bit more of a tw@ because you need to take the entire fairing lower off and the side mounted radiators get in the way more than simply removing the front one (which isn't hard to remove in the grand scheme of things, only the one bolt).

So yes, they are getting harder to work on and I would go so far as to say it is deliberate.

Took the fairing off a CBR125 not so long ago to repair it after a crash. There are 16 seperate pieces of plastic in the top fairing alone. Yet my GPZ which was made 10 years previously managed to achieve the same task using one piece.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[damz]

may seem a bit odd but when i went to look at a ducati 748 a few months ago it looked sooooo simple!. fairings came off just by pulling 5 wee tabs, rear fairing only had one bolt iirc then you were pretty much at the belt and rockers within a fewmins, everything was easy to access.
____________________
Current Bikes RVF400 - 94
Cars: RX7 FD, Eunos Roadster
Former Bikes: FZR 250R 89, ZX7R 98

[Smooth]

A lot of work is put in to keep manufacturing costs down. Servicing and maintenance are low priority.

Although making access awkward is probably not deliberate, very few people are knowledgeable/confident about doing home repairs these days anyway and will take their bikes to the main dealer for any work, so ease of maintenance will not lose many sales.
____________________
TDM850

[The Shaggy D.A.]

The most I want to do to get to plugs or valves is take the seat and tank off. At a pinch, I don't mind taking side fairings off.

And I want locknut adjustment, not shims. But that's a different rant.
____________________
Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
Previously : CB100N > CB250RS > XJ900F > GT550 > GPZ750R/1000RX > AJS M16 > R100RT > Bullet 500 > CB500 > LS650P > Bullet Electra X & YBR125 > Bullet 350 "Superstar" & YBR125 Custom > Royal Enfield Classic 500 Despatch Limited Edition (28 of 200) & CB Two-Fifty Nighthawk > ER5

[Itchy]

[Syx]

I found the ER6 particularly annoying to work on, but never had a problem with bikes from 5 years ago!

[Charlie]

I totally agree with Itchy and Stinkwheel, they are deliberity making bikes harder to service so that people will make use of dealerships.

Other than a slight weight saving why do lots of modern bikes (at least Honda's) not come with a centre stand as standard? I can understand it on sports bikes, but on commuter and dual sports bikes? It so it makes it a lot harder for the average person to service.
____________________
Past: Honda x8rs, Honda City fly, Honda Hornet 250, Honda VFR750, Yamaha xt600e.
Current: Honda CBR929RR & Yamaha XT660Z Tenere

[stinkwheel]

They do other stuff, I'm convinced just to annoy you.

Had a classic on the VFR. The very last bolt you need to take out when stripping the swingarm/unitrak fouls the mainstand bracket.

In order to get this bolt out, you need to remove the mainstand pivot but by the time you get to this point, you've already removed the swingarm and rear shock and the bike is now resting entirely on the mainstand.

Having sorted it all out this time round (using axle stands and such), I found that had the bolt been put in from the other side, there would have been no such problem.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Dr. DaveJPS]

apparently the new ducati monster has 11 bolts to remove the fuel tank.




although on old bikes you occasionally find some stupid designs, like on featherbed framed nortons you can't remove the side stand without removing the engine
____________________
"intelligent inattention is preferable to unintelligent tinkering"
www.davejps.com

[Kickstart]

Hi

Not so sure they are generally getting more difficult. Some get worse, some get better.

Worst bike we have ever had for working on was a 125 2 stroke Gilera from 1991. The CX125 is a complete pig to work on. Just about anything means removing the fairing, and to get the front fairing off you start by removign the bodywork at the back.

For comparison with the ER6, on a GPZ500 to do the valves.

Fairing inner panel off

Seat off

Tank off

Drain cooling system

Remove water pipes to head (normally stuck in place)

Remove throttle cables (possibly requiring the carbs to come off, which means unbolting the airbox

Removing the coils

Removing the rocker cover (just about possible with the coils off)

The old FZ750 is a fair bit worse, and the plugs are just about impossible to remove. Getting the carbs off a 1200 Bandit almost requires GBH to the bike. Older spine frame Triumphs need the carbs removing just to change an air filter.

Most modern bikes have frames that go around the outside of the engine with the carbs / throttle bodies pointing up with the airbox above them. Makes them a doddle to remove.

Might comes down to costs. Make it harder to work on and it is probably harder to make so making production more expensive and any warrenty work more expensive.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[truslack]

[the grim reaper]

I think that on sports bikes, bikers in general have to take some of the blame in the move towards increased inflexibility, well, bikers and the nobs who enforce emissions laws.

Making bikes easier to service requires further R&D, not much in the grand scheme of things but when you are spending a lot of cash on R&D to make the latest GSX/CBR/Rx/ZX the lightest most powerful bike to date, which makes it quicker and therefore the highest rated one in the bike mags, which in turn leads to higher sales, then servicing and ease of maintenance come a long way down the list.

Take Stinkwheel's example on the VFR, a little bot of forethought on the design front could have seen that job made far easier but that requirement is way down on the manufacturers list of priorities.

I ride a Fazer 1000 and directly under the tank is a huge AIS (Air Induction System) valve that pumps clean air into the exhaust gases to pass the latest emission tests. I have now bought a blanking kit and removed the crappy think ang all the associated pipework but with it there you can't get to the sparkplugs at all. This is an exanple of manufacturers being dictated to and they know that putting the AIS there is a pain but there is nowhere else to put the huge valve.

I don't think manufacturers deliberately make things complicated (with the exception of VTEC ) but I do think that they don't really care about maintenance.

Cheers

Grim
____________________
Adverts don't always work: Remember that advert, where the army are running across the desert and they have a wounded man on a stretcher. They get to a ravine, the bridge is down and a caption pops up that says, 'What are you thinking?'. I don't know about you but I was thinking, 'Christ, I'm glad I'm not in the f***ing army'.

[Kickstart]

[karoshi]

[27cows]

I am convinced a lot of manufacturers deliberately make bikes more difficult to work on at home. Less home maintenance means more work and more lovely lolly for dealers. Honda in particular are notorious for their requirement of all manner of special tools to get things undone etc.

Main problem is that bikes are so tiny compared these days compared to the obese dinosaurs of 20-30 years ago. In order to squeeze an engine into a small and light chassic, lots of stuff has to be tucked out of the way. Fairings don't help, as they are time consuming to remove in general and relatively fragile. But even naked bikes can be a major pain in the arse.

When lots of stuff has to be removed just to get to the plugs, you have to say that the designers aren't doing much of a job. I begin to remember now why I've always liked air cooled strokers