Nationwide offroad/Greenlane/BOATS routes depository?

[Imonster]

This thread originally started as an attempt to build a database of legal routes for us to use, available publically to all and with the somewhat ambitious intention of creating a nationwide database of the trail networks in this country.

The idea was;

a) Anyone who was new to the pastime could get an idea of where they could ride without fear of straying off piste. Coupled with Joe's useful post about trail riding legalities, any potential noob could have a (hopefully) useful source of information to get going with.

b) Anybody who fancied riding in a different area of the country than their own area, would be able to swiftly access some routes for the place that they were looking to ride. The databases strongest feature would be the fact that it relied on local knowledge, ie. if any lanes on the list were subsequently TRO'd, then the creators of those routes would be able to amend them accordingly.


The thread ended up being more of a debate about route sharing and the TRF, consequently I have wiped my original post and replaced it with this.

If the debate ends up coming to the conlusion that route sharing is a good thing, then another thread shall be started containing less chatter, and more routes.

If the debate comes to the opposite conclusion, then so be it

Thoughts?
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

[Blue_SV650S]

I'll leave this place-holder here, I am happy to upload .gpx of both the bockets and long route, but as I am not the routes founder, I will leave this up for a coupla days for the founders to see my intentions and PM me if they have a problem with the routes becoming public ....

perhaps putting the routes into area specific forums (like SE for us) might be an idea to make the routes public, but only to a known quantity ... i.e. BCF members that the mods have approved for that section ... perhaps making it slightly cliquey is against the ethos of what you are trying to do here, but I am sure you can see there could be downsides of making to making the routes totally public ....



anyway, as I said, I'll leave this place-holder here for a couple of day to let things 'mature' a bit
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The purpose of life is to fight maturity.

[Imonster]

[Klause]

Really good to be able to get hold of routes. How many of these are still being used today? Me and Bluesv went to do a recommended route which turned out to be 90% illegal/TRO.

I also cringe abit when this infomation like this is given out freely (internet). Heard horror storries of people posting up their routes, people find them using google (for example) and the route gets abused.
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Current bikes: 1960 Triumph 5ta x2, TTR600RE, KTM200EXC, Cagiva Elephant 900ie.

[Imonster]

Abused in what way? Used legally? Overused?

I'm genuinely confused by the apparent unwillingness to share routes publically (I realise that the SE lot are quite happy to have strangers accompany them though)

The above routes already posted, may have some parts that are TRO'd, etc. I don't know, that's why it is is the riders responsibility to find out for themselves and follow correct signage.

If we are worrried about the routes becoming overused, if we look at the examples in the first post - what are the chances that everyone who reads this would converge on the same route at the same time? 18 routes to choose from, but a much higher than a 1 in 18 chance that everyone who reads this would go there on the same day.

Re: Potentially illegal routes, the two/three Surrey routes, and the Sussex route are all legal to my knowledge. And used by others who are not involved on this site...
____________________
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

[Imonster]

[Blue_SV650S]

[Imonster]

[Blue_SV650S]

[Imonster]

I know that Joe in particular logged a lot of hours (90 +?) getting the Surrey routes together, as has Svenn with Sussex.

Over to the "owners" then....

Joe? Silky? Svenn?

or ?


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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

[S]

My willingness to share is bourne out of my frustration at being a newbie and there being nothing out there.

Bear with me, my route can still be tweaked to be better.


I have three

small one in the south
small one in the north
large one combining the two

uploaded when i get time.

[Tonka]

Apologies if this seems naive, but why don't you just pay and join the National TRF and then your local TRF?

If you're too tight to cough up the money (£50 for the year) then IMHO you're really two faced, as running a dirt bike is not a cheap hobby and that £50 is a drop in the ocean over a year's riding. The money goes towards fighting these TRO's and closures and ensuring there are still places for legal dirt bikes to go. The Rights of Way Officers give their time for free to fight these cases and the money goes towards the legal fees and professional advice.

The 'current' legal routes are available to all in the TRF - you just join and ask.

To Imonster - I'm not having a go, even if it seems that way - I think the resources are great, but on the basis that the routes are changing so frequently and that it is so sensitive risking riding on routes that are TRO'd I think it makes more sense to keep current through the TRF. Just my
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'The core of a man's spirit comes from new experiences'
Suzuki SV650S (Clean); Yamaha XT250 Serow (Dirty)

[S]

[Imonster]

[Tonka]

Each local TRF group has different individuals and as such has a different view on the transparency of routes. I know that in Dorset a concrete block was put out to stop 4x4’s and the local TRF Group complained as a point of principle, as no legal route should be blocked - padlocking the gate is illegal and I think you'll find it's the landowner in the wrong there, as well as the local TRF Group being very selfish and short sighted only considering themselves. There are such things as 4 wheel TRO's that allow bikes but ban quads and 4x4's that have been used very successfully in Cambridgeshire. Details of Dorset UCR’s and BOAT’s are already freely available on the Internet, albeit these are not updated. None of the route information is 'secret' by the way - it is all public knowledge.

FYI I only learned to off-road 6 months ago and in that time I have gone out of my way to help new riders like myself around the local Dorset lanes and I have also got myself on the local TRF Committee, so that I can make that difference and break down these barriers. Having a rant about perceived injustice is all well and good at assuaging your wrath, but it is so much more worthwhile to channel it and achieve something positive. It's fair to say that there are a considerable number of changes happening within the TRF that I think you would find very positive and more in tune with your views following the last AGM.

Any Ordnance Survey map provides you with details of UCR’s and BOATs by default and anyone who is capable of map reading can see where they can ride. The problem is the unseen part (changes to status) that needs to be frequently updated and the internet source will become no different to the map without this regular updating. This is all ground that has been very well trodden and the overall consensus is that you can stick to a map and take your chances if you don’t do your homework at the local Council Offices or join the TRF and get the updates more easily. It’s clear from the Disclaimer that no-one is intending to keep the Internet info regularly updated.

Like I said just under £4.50 a month to provide you with the basis for your hobby is a small price to pay whichever way you look at it - less than one ride‘s fuel per month. I'm sorry if you can't afford to get your bike serviced, but with respect if you couldn't afford to tax it and insure it I doubt if the Police would be so accommodating, so why do you think they will be if you get caught on a now illegal route because the info you had was out of date? I think that you'll find getting caught on a TRO'd route could work out considerably more expensive.

........and I think that this post was interesting as to opinions on the TRF.
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'The core of a man's spirit comes from new experiences'
Suzuki SV650S (Clean); Yamaha XT250 Serow (Dirty)

[Imonster]

[Tonka]

To answer: yes, the Council was contacted and the concrete block was moved within days.

As previously stated the information in it's raw form is freely available to all, the benefit you have by joining the TRF is the 'ease of information'. The choice you make by not joining is to arrange this information yourself - your choice.

There really isn't all this secrecy that you seem to think there is - the only difference is that each month at meetings or on the web forums you can read about any TRO's and changes. This is information that you can either read in the local papers or get from your Library or Council offices.

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but is what you are saying that others cannot or do not wish to sit down with Memory Map and plot out a route and would like someone else to give them suggested routes already done, so that they don't ride illegally? They would like this to be provided free of charge, despite the fact that it has taken someone else time and effort to compile it and will then take more time and effort to keep it updated? Oh, and to make this easier for the individual doing this they will also need to pay their membership to the TRF, so others don't have to?

If the above is the case then they can then save the £40 and don't have to join the TRF or are you suggesting that once this information is available to all so readily that everyone will have a complete change of heart and miraculoulsy be able to find that elusive £40 that they either cannot afford just now or don't wish to find because they don't agree with the TRF or the way it's run?

How does the TRF, an organisation that requires Members to pay to join so that it can fund keeping the Rights of Way open to all, then justify this to those who do pay and then keep or even, as you suggest increase it's membership?

Lots of people that I have taken out on rides have been non TRF and I'm more than happy to take a group out if you wish to visit Dorset or even venture into Wiltshire and the Plains. The offer has been extended to several BCF'ers already. TRF Groups all help each other out and provide Lead riders for trips to other Counties - we've been to both Devon and Cornwall on such trips.

The way to protect our Rights of Way is to encourage Trail Riders to join the TRF. There are new people on the National Committee who are committed to making the TRF more effective and it will be this year that tells whether they are moving in the right direction. You clearly have a problem with your local TRF but there's nothing I can do about that, only you can.
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'The core of a man's spirit comes from new experiences'
Suzuki SV650S (Clean); Yamaha XT250 Serow (Dirty)

[Imonster]

[Tonka]

Imonster you clearly have a complete 'bee in your bonnet' about the TRF and nothing I can say or do will change that - Sussex TRF seem to have got to you and clearly rather than deal with it, you're going to TRF bash everyone who has anything to do with them.

As for publishing my routes - at best I use a Memory Map and I don't have 90+ hours to spend creating a website, nor I hasten to add the ability. I use a map, it's old fashioned but it works - if you wish to copy the highlighted routes from my OS map then come over and you can. I do not personally wish to take responsibility for updating info on an ongoing basis either.

It would seem that neither Dorset or Surrey (Joe's info) TRF are cliquey, rude or patronising, so short of move I have no further ideas for you. As for encouraging new members - that's why I joined the Committee to do just that. Given that there are quite a few people suffering with reduced incomes this year I will see how I get on, but I'd like to think that I can at least keep the Membership numbers the same, if not increase them in Dorset. I've started with newsletters, emails and general friendliness at the monthly meetings. Next are more rideouts to be published for all newcomers, followed by promoting the TRF at the local Bike Nights and when out an about on the Trails. I'm doing my best to do something positive - I can do no more than that.

My view is that I think the 'site' idea is only as good as the updates, which is where my point about joining your local TRF Group to keep updated came from - the rest of the information is already available.
____________________
'The core of a man's spirit comes from new experiences'
Suzuki SV650S (Clean); Yamaha XT250 Serow (Dirty)

[Imonster]