Reline or re-plate ....

Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

My KTM 2-stroke motor finally came through the post today!! Thumbs Up

Now, like most modern 2-stroke bikes, the KTM is nicosil plated barrel.

I sent the motor off with a big score down the barrel, so it clearly needed a replate, perhaps 'repair' (weld) and replate ...

Anyway, when the engine returned, I read down the bill and one of the items was a "re-line".

Now I know digging it all out and putting a steel sleeve/liner in there is an alternative to nicosil, but I didn't really want that ....

I wanted nicosil ....

I have heard horror stories about re-lines on bikes that are supposed to have nicosil - something to do with heat dispersion is set differently ...

So gutted (especially as it cost proper money to get this done) ...

I phoned the place up to confirm it was a re-line, not a re-plate and indeed it was Crying or Very sad

They assured me it was fine and they had been doing engines like that for 30years blah blah blah ....

Interestingly they said that they don't re-plate barrels that are >=10yrs old ... something to do with the metal porosity over time meaning the re-plates tend not to take?!!? Confused

So - re-line on an originally nicosil barrel ... is it really all that bad?!?!!?!??!? Is it going to cause me lots of grief???

They charged me £150 for the re-line too ... for that it could have been nicosiled ... Confused

p.s. If it was originally a steel bore, I wouldn't be bothered ... but nicosil is ... well ... better ...

p.p.s they put the ruddy cylinder head on the wrong way round too (mounting point at the front, not the back) ... so I had to take that off and turn it!! Rolling Eyes

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MaybeGuy · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Karma :

apparantly the guy seems to know better than KTM do.

anyone can do a sleeve change and rebore, but not everyone can do a nikasil replate.

my guess is he cant do nikasil and is bullshitting his way out of it.

in future... DO ALL ENGINE WORK YOURSELF. at least that way you know its done right, and hopefully eventually the scums will be wiped out and at the dole office for fucking people over like they deserve.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!! Mr. Green

Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

MaybeGuy · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Karma :

so you dont just send your barrel off to be replated?
also, who the fuck sends a whole engine off other than a complete mug?
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!! Mr. Green

Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

Seems Matt is being a t1t, so I'll give him a bloody good ignoring!! Wink

For everyone else - I have a little something for you!! Cool

Sorry for pap quality vid, but I only got the motor at ~5pm, so it was dark by the time I had it in and running (and it was only taken on my mobile).

What a beautiful sound!! Cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppYVyDOYsC8

The running in schedule is a bit of a pain though!! Rolling Eyes

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---- · World Chat Champion Joined: 29 Sep 2006 Karma :

My 230 is originally nikasil but now has liner fitted and there's no noticeable difference to the way it runs.
Although i've only done about 1000 miles so far.
Had to do a 400 mile run in on mine and have been told it will now need top end service every 4k miles (originally it was every 15k Shocked

big difference! )

Can't wait to see the vids of it in action Very Happy

P.S. there's a company called apticote who do nikasil repairs for under £100 with a 4 day turn around for an extra £30. They seem quite cheap for liners aswell. Wink

bit late now i know but you will no doubt need more work done at some point.
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temeluchus · World Chat Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2008 Karma :

I believe the main advantage of plated bores over cast iron liners is better heat dissipation, with a side benefit of reducing weight slightly.

For example the aircooled BMW boxer engines went from sleeved to plated bores in the 80's. Made little to no performance difference and a slight weight reduction.
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Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

Kickstart · The Oracle Joined: 04 Feb 2002 Karma :

Hi

Personally I would prefer a replate. My only experience of a steel liner being inserted was one supplied by Aprilia under warrenty in 1992. Which rattle like mad (so badly I only dared test it for about 200 yards).

Done well they should be OK.

Some claim the only reason that plated barrels started to be used was to save money. However that doesn't really go with them first being used in competition bikes, then filtering down to road sports bikes. While cheap commuters are still using liners.

The plated bore should be far more wear resistant, just that if something goes wrong and it gets damaged you cannot cheaply rebore it.

As far as I know there are only 2 people in the country who can actually do replating. All the others just send them to one of those 2.

All the best

Keith
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temeluchus · World Chat Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2008 Karma :

Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

Yeah, as I said, I expected a re-plate (told the old one was scored, so it might need a repair too) ... surely at that point they should have said the would sleeve (and I would have gone elsewhere at that point) ... but what can I do about it now??? ... I mean they have fixed the motor ..... Confused

What do you guys make of this don't re-plate if >=10 years thing??? Confused

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MaybeGuy · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Karma :

stevo as b4 · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Karma :

Sorry to hear the problems you had with your engine reconditioner Blue.

Name and shame is needed here TBH!
I think if the quality of the job is done well then a steel/iron liner fitted would do the job fine, and be possibly less cold seizure prone and a bit more hard wearing and less critical of good air filtration etc.

I'm no expert, but i would expect heat dissapation to be not as good under hot high load conditions or race use. The piston and bore will wear quicker too IMO, but you would still probably get 2new piston and ring assemblys along with a good hone out of the linered bore, before your first re-bore is needed. If you do nip up the bike it's no biggey, as a light hone and a set of rings would see you on your way again the same day.

The main issue for me with going from a Nicasil bore to a linered conversion is that i have always heard that it reduces the performance and power output slightly. I expect it's due to the increased friction and or the larger piston/bore clearances needed for safety. You will need to check piston to bore clearance is correct on re-assembly, as the stated clearance for a plated bore will probably be too tight!

I like Nicasil for it's simple hard wearing surface, and if you don't seize or overheat the engine or run it when it's badly worn then it's happy days. I would expect a healthy Nicasil bore to last 2-3new piston and ring changes before it is close to wearing out. On a road bike that could be 25-30k.

I hope you get it running well anyway dude!

p.s. Im hoping to use a place called JK tuning for my KMX re-plate and tuning work, as they seem to have a very good rep in the Superteen's racing circles.

Pete. · Super Spammer Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Karma :

They are full of it about the porosity, if nikasil was porous you'd burn the barrel in no time. Prbably the reason they don't want to do it is in case the plating flakes on the edges of the ports.

The reason the liner will wear the components out quicker is that Nikasil plating is harder than a frozen dogturd. You cannot hone it with a normal bore hone you need a diamond hone to touch it. This hardness means less friction which means less wear to the piston & rings. You'll still see the honing-marks in a nikasil barrel from when it was new after the engine has done 25k miles or more - you won't see them after running-in on a lined barrel. You'll also get better heat-transferrance through a plated barrel since steel doesn't transfer heat nearly as well as alloy.
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy

Blue_SV650S · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Karma :

I am tempted to name and shame ... but I am going to reserve that for if/when I get a engine problem - then no question - I am going to shout it from the rooftops ... Twisted Evil

I am not fussed about any slight power differences, I just want reliability and durability ... sounds like durability is less - which annoys me immensely ....
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The purpose of life is to fight maturity.