Capitalism is the new communism?

[Hetzer]

Or has always been actually?

The rich get all the benefits of capitalism...but for the common man, he works and basically sees most of his money taken from him in taxes and bills, with a tiny bit left over for fun stuff. Isn't that, effectively, communism? "Work and make enough for your needs".

Or is the ability to borrow money (credit) for material goodies above and beyond ones survival needs the definition of capitalism for the common working man, and is what sets it apart from communism?
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[Itchy]

No, because what we have no isn't capitalism it is corporationism, which is a mix of communism, socialism with elements of capitalism but with advanced propaganda to propogate the illusionary thought that we live in a capitalist society.

Capitalists don't bail out banks, minimum wage laws and ideally have zero taxes or a level of tax that reduces any market distortions with minimal sized government.

In that economic activity of the public sector is in effect coercion, which is why there are penalties for non payment of tax.

The government states that people want to pay tax that taxes are by consent but if this was so then why are there penalties when we refuse ~ the NHK man debate is useful here, law says you have to pay but there are no penalties so there is mass non compliance.


In that if we had a true capitalist society (which isn't possible although very very close appoximations of this can occur), then everything would be subject to less distortions and the things people don't want fall by the way side as there is no demand.


For example people do not demand VHS therefore companies stop producing it. People do demand faster computers, faster bikes better tyres and better food. So companies produce this.



People do not demand certain elements of government expenditure, say ID cards. I say NO I don't want them but they extort it via taxes for me to pay them. Similarly I don't want ethnic diversity coordinators, but the government says I do. I have no refusal mechanism. If I do not comply they come and get me.



The problem of true capitalism is itself, in that it is self consuming and has a tendancy to destroy itself with monopolies creating a non free market. Also that capitalists seek efficiency gains which destroys jobs. This has the side effect of destroying their consumer bases who can't buy their goods anymore as they no longer have jobs.


A close approximation of capitalism is HK, Lehmans went under there the HK government did nothing, most people there pay bog all tax, I can make £25K a year and pay 2% on that. Council tax is £18.60 a month. Exept that this place has some huge distortions created by Land Value tax and also the big 4 corporates that have formed virtual monopolies on everything.
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[Hetzer]

That's all well and good, but...

For the typical man in the street, what is the effective difference between communism and what we have right now in this country?

A communist citizen works and gets...what?

A capitalist man works and gets...what?

The only real difference I can see is that the capitalist man gets to hock his future labour into debt so that he can have some toys now. The communist man simply goes without.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[yuri2085]

'Ideal' communism / 'ideal' socialism is for the benefit of the working man.

'Ideal' socialism builds upon the mass recources/production provided by capatlism; but without the oppression.


That is the theory anyway, the weak are looked after and everyone has a good and plentiful life.

[colin1]

[Hetzer]

[colin1]

You have clearly not understood the basics, if you are trying to convince us that capitalism is the new communism.

They are fundamentally different.

Facts and details may seem boring, but if you dont understand what you are talking about, its just going to be nonsense.
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[Hetzer]

[Rejimbo]

[D O G]

Much higher chance of moving from being a 'common man' near the bottom of the pile to in the high echelons in capitalism.

Very limited chance of doing so in Communism, and never through purely one's own talents and sweat.

That is the difference, IMO, communism removes that motivating factor.

[LeeR]

I think I understand what Hetzer means (I hope) and that is essentially it doesn't matter what system you live under. If you're at the top you're at the top and enjoy the benefits of that position, if you're at the bottom you're at the bottom and life will be shit.

I've often thought that for millions of Chinese peasants it matters little whether there's and emperor in the imperial palace, a nationalist government, or maoist dictatorship, life probably continues as it has for centuries and your allegiance is expected.

But, yes capitalism is not communism, I'm still waiting for the "third way"
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[colin1]

Well of course the people without power will serve the people in power, thats a given. It's always been this way and cant be any other.

If you try to make everyone equal, inevitably, some will rise to the top.

It still doesnt make capitalism the new communism. That's just soundbite nonsense, using words without understanding what they mean.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Hetzer]

[WildGoose]

There is supposedly hope for your own future with capitalism, i.e. work hard and you can be rich and succesful. The American dream.

Though in reality you get rich and succesful through being unethical, corrupt or generally fucking over someone else for the most part.

Definitions are completely irrelevant, or at least, they don't interest me. The communism the world ended up with, was/is not what was intended.

Having all your money taken away for bills/taxes isn't communism but it isn't good. The system does seem designed to keep you in your place, whatever it is. Everytime I get a bit of a break or finally get squared up financially, something will come along to suck it all up again.

As more taxes are invented, and increased, while wages are not, we seem destined to end up with less and less money and therefore less freedom.


The only way ahead I can see is a move away from totalitarian agriculture and towards self sufficiency, of course this requires massive changes in lifestyle and outlook (and possible population adjustments) which so few would be prepared to embrace. Likely actually to violently oppose. It also requires a large amount of money to get started, which of course you don't have, so again the system is designed to keep you where you are.

Treading water for yourself, and supplying your labour to make money for the system.

Mental health and happiness doesn't really feature, which is the real fucking problem.
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[Kickstart]

[Visitor Q]

I get the point, but unfortunately there is really no way around it whilst we still have a money based economy and rampant consumerism.

Want to move to Pala, fuck the scooters.
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[colin1]

Forms of government as Explained by Reference to Cows

Feudalism

You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

Pure Socialism

You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you all the milk you need.

Bureaucratic Socialism

Your cows are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs the regulations say you should need.

Fascism

You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

Pure Communism

You have two cows. Your neighbours help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

Real World Communism

You share two cows with your neighbours. You and your neighbours bicker about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of starvation.

Russian Communism

You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the black market.

Perestroika

You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the Mafia takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the "free" market.

Cambodian Communism

You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

Militarianism

You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

Totalitarianism

You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

Pure Democracy

You have two cows. Your neighbours decide who gets the milk.

Representative Democracy

You have two cows. Your neighbours pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

British Democracy

You have two cows. You feed them sheep's brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.

Bureaucracy

You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

Pure Anarchy

You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbours try to take the cows and kill you.

Pure Capitalism

You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Capitalism

You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows, because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.

Environmentalism

You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.

Political Correctness

You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo centric, war mongering, intolerant past) two differently - aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

Surrealism

You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

Enron Capitalism

You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank. He then executes a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by your CFO who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on six more.

Now do you see why a company with $62 billion in assets is declaring bankruptcy?
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[smegballs]

[chris-red]

Does it matter? whatever it's called we still get shafted.
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[pa_broon74]

What Chris said basically.

Both ideals (capitalism and communism) would probably work were it not for human propensity toward greed and short-sightedness.

I think the question you should ask is: Is Capitalism the new fascism.


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Didn't catch anything.

[Hetzer]

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[Hetzer]

[pa_broon74]

Democracy infers choice but you couldn't get a fag paper between the main parties just now.

Capitalist fascism is actually quite apt, if you take out the nationialist agenda. You have an EU chucking in all sorts of laws dictating how we must trade, we have a government in the UK that panders to big business and mostyl just does it's bidding (you can take out democracy, see first sentence.)

The idea that consumerism can replace liberty.

Mmm, a slave to your direct debit payments?


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Didn't catch anything.

[and]

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