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Braking on long bends

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Nai
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Braking on long bends Reply with quote
Ok, not quite got used to this yet, still only done 8 day'ish riding, but I am going on the A40 and A406 daily. When your coming around the long bends at 40mph and presented with a wall of unmoving traffic, what brake do you use? Front or back or both?

Its a dumb question I know Embarassed , on my CBT I was told not to use the front brake at all when cornering (does a long bend in the road count as cornering such as by the Iron Bridge just up the road from the ace café?). But I have noticed a few times when I have had another biker near me they go onto the front brake (brake lights come on but they don't move their right foot). I have seen the videos on this forum of... Siding... Low side or high side one of the two.... Something to do with braking with the front brake on a corner.

Long bends at speed are about the only thing I am still uncomfortable with on a motorbike now, I have slipped into everything else pretty quickly within my first 300 miles.
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Paxovasa
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can use both brakes, but be gentle with the front brake or the bike will stand up.
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WetSparks
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just remember that when you close the throttle you will be using some degree of engine braking on the rear wheel. Therefore a little bit of front brake will balance this off and help you stop.

The thing is that on a gentle sweeping bend, where you are not leaning well over, the bike will readily come into the upright for you to stop. The only real danger of front wheel braking on a bend is with speed and a tight bend, that is well lent over. Give it a handful then and kiss your bike bye bye.

As Pax said, keep it gentle.


Hi John,

Phil Smile
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Alexio
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exactly. On a gentle bend you can still brake incredibly violently without any consequence with both brakes, as I have been forced to discover before now Thumbs Up

I think it's more like the more you are lent over the less grip your tires will have to offer additionally for braking but the amount of grip taken away from you is not as much as you will be thinking. It's something you've just got to try and gauge from experience.

I've seen rossi go in to corners at 45 degrees hard on both brakes so it must be possible Wink
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Nai
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool, thank you. I am a bit of a stickler for speed limits and such so its rare I go flying round any corners at high speed. The main one really is the A406 on the iron bridge. Twice this week I have gone round it between 30-40 and had a sharp breaking car in-front of me due to the bus stop just after the corner. Even with a 2 second gap I panic a bit when having to go from 40 to 0-10 on a bend. One of them things that will probably come with experience too but I find I rarely put my foot on the rear brake. It sort of feels... Unnatural still you know? Blah Smile

Bugger of a road for a speed limit stickler too cause nobody else seems to notice the speed limit signs up the A40 and A406 so I end up with a trail of people up my trumpet all the way up it. Rolling Eyes On that note, sorry if you ever get stuck behind black Rieju RS2 in London who refuses to go above the speed limit. That would be me and yes I figure I annoy a lot of road users Rolling Eyes
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TUG
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paxovasa wrote:
You can use both brakes, but be gentle with the front brake or the bike will stand up.

NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!! the front brake is only used to slow entry speed, your rear brake, clutch, and throttle control is all you need in corners, SLOW IN! FAST OUT!
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Alexio
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
TUG wrote:
Paxovasa wrote:
You can use both brakes, but be gentle with the front brake or the bike will stand up.

NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!! the front brake is only used to slow entry speed, your rear brake, clutch, and throttle control is all you need in corners, SLOW IN! FAST OUT!


This is mostly good advice, but it ignores the fact that you ought to have some kind of front to rear braking balance even in sharp corners. That and braking mid-corner will produce "under-steer" to a point because you are slowing down and will lean further?
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will never give up his CG. I look at my fuel gauge more as a progress bar than a fuel gauge.
G: With my GSXR I do often effectively use it as a scooter with a clutch in town.
ms51ves3: why does it need 500 miles? Are you teaching it how to be a piston?
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Flip
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
TUG wrote:
NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!!


Using it lightly won't kill you. Engine braking is good is you have enough torque to make it effective.

Edit: I see you have a 125. Ignore the engine braking bit. Thumbs Up
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Alexio
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flip wrote:
TUG wrote:
NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!!


Using it lightly won't kill you. Engine braking is good is you have enough torque to make it effective.

Edit: I see you have a 125. Ignore the engine braking bit. Thumbs Up


125's have engine braking!! Razz Stick it in the next gear "too low" and the engine braking produced from an engine struggling with 9k RPM produces a massive force. Not that it's a good style of riding or anything!
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will never give up his CG. I look at my fuel gauge more as a progress bar than a fuel gauge.
G: With my GSXR I do often effectively use it as a scooter with a clutch in town.
ms51ves3: why does it need 500 miles? Are you teaching it how to be a piston?
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Muscle Bike Rider
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PostPosted: 22:00 - 22 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
As a 125 rider I find gentle front & downchange is good, to much front and the bike starts to stand up, rear brake if you need to be a bit more forceful IE halfway through the corner and you find traffic at a standstill etc.
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Paxovasa
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 23 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
TUG wrote:
Paxovasa wrote:
You can use both brakes, but be gentle with the front brake or the bike will stand up.

NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!! the front brake is only used to slow entry speed, your rear brake, clutch, and throttle control is all you need in corners, SLOW IN! FAST OUT!


If you need to slow down while cornering then you can use the front brake. Just be gentle, if you grab it then you will stand the bike up.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alexio wrote:
I've seen rossi go in to corners at 45 degrees hard on both brakes so it must be possible Wink


As was explained by S Parrish this weekend at Le Mans. The moto Gp tyres are designed to have a more flexable side wall, which actually increases the tyre contact patch when lent over.
This then gives greater grip to allow for braking when lent over.

As to bikes standing up in corners....... Read this Link

Quote:
The more interesting exercise (IMHO) was dispelling the myth that if you use the front brake in a bend the bike will stand up. They had had 12 police officers on Pan Europeans who had been sent on the course and who were all adamant that their bikes suffered from this. And they apparently all did until the instructor showed them why, but by the end they had managed to stop the Pans from 40mph in a bend in about 30 yards. It was explained that the reason the bike stands up is that the rider is unconsciously counter steering it because of inadvertent weight transfer to the handlebars. The cure for this included an exercise of one handed braking – we did this in a straight line. In order to keep the bike going straight the body has to instinctively grip the bike with the knees and brace the back so that no weight goes on the one handlebar. Apparently all (front wheel) braking should be done like this (not one-handed though!) as it keeps some of the weight acting through the centre of the bike, and therefore keeps a load on the back wheel. If you can train your pillion in this technique, it can provide even better stable stopping power. We were all able to tighten up the line in a bend using just the front brake, at speeds up to 40mph (we were on a relatively short runway so that’s as fast as we did the exercise). The Rocket did this without a murmur of protest.


As you use the road on a daily basis, you are now aware of what its like and should ride and expect to have to slow mid corner.
So coming upto one of these, position yourself on the road to give maximum view of the curve, which then gives you more time to slow. If its such a gental curve you should have no trouble stopping.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
TUG wrote:
Paxovasa wrote:
You can use both brakes, but be gentle with the front brake or the bike will stand up.

NEVER USE THE FRONT BRAKE!!! the front brake is only used to slow entry speed, your rear brake, clutch, and throttle control is all you need in corners, SLOW IN! FAST OUT!


Read the thread, slow in fast out will lead him to be fast out into a wall of cars.


You can get away with it, as had been said, if you are careful, but personally I feel as you are a newbie you should avoid it all together, use it if you don;t think you can stop intime and don't panic and slam it on or you will end up on the floor.
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Alexio
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
Alexio wrote:
I've seen rossi go in to corners at 45 degrees hard on both brakes so it must be possible Wink


As was explained by S Parrish this weekend at Le Mans. The moto Gp tyres are designed to have a more flexable side wall, which actually increases the tyre contact patch when lent over.
This then gives greater grip to allow for braking when lent over.

As to bikes standing up in corners....... Read this Link

Quote:
The more interesting exercise (IMHO) was dispelling the myth that if you use the front brake in a bend the bike will stand up. They had had 12 police officers on Pan Europeans who had been sent on the course and who were all adamant that their bikes suffered from this. And they apparently all did until the instructor showed them why, but by the end they had managed to stop the Pans from 40mph in a bend in about 30 yards. It was explained that the reason the bike stands up is that the rider is unconsciously counter steering it because of inadvertent weight transfer to the handlebars. The cure for this included an exercise of one handed braking – we did this in a straight line. In order to keep the bike going straight the body has to instinctively grip the bike with the knees and brace the back so that no weight goes on the one handlebar. Apparently all (front wheel) braking should be done like this (not one-handed though!) as it keeps some of the weight acting through the centre of the bike, and therefore keeps a load on the back wheel. If you can train your pillion in this technique, it can provide even better stable stopping power. We were all able to tighten up the line in a bend using just the front brake, at speeds up to 40mph (we were on a relatively short runway so that’s as fast as we did the exercise). The Rocket did this without a murmur of protest.


As you use the road on a daily basis, you are now aware of what its like and should ride and expect to have to slow mid corner.
So coming upto one of these, position yourself on the road to give maximum view of the curve, which then gives you more time to slow. If its such a gental curve you should have no trouble stopping.


This is quite amusing because I had this mindset (obviously from putting my weight on the handle bars / subconsciously countersteering) and as such when ever I braked on a sharp bend had been consciously countersteering to maintain the same lean angle while braking just as hard. It sounds like I should start to practice my weight distribution regarding my handle bars though.
____________________
will never give up his CG. I look at my fuel gauge more as a progress bar than a fuel gauge.
G: With my GSXR I do often effectively use it as a scooter with a clutch in town.
ms51ves3: why does it need 500 miles? Are you teaching it how to be a piston?
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alexio wrote:


This is quite amusing because I had this mindset (obviously from putting my weight on the handle bars / subconsciously countersteering) and as such when ever I braked on a sharp bend had been consciously countersteering to maintain the same lean angle while braking just as hard. It sounds like I should start to practice my weight distribution regarding my handle bars though.


It's a CG not a GP bike just ride the thing and have fun.
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Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
The ultimate aim is not to touch the brakes mid corner though.

As other have said, try going into the corner in a lower gear and use the throttle as a linear rather than an on-off switch. It doesn't have to be either fully open or fully closed, vary the throttle input as you go round depending on if you need to widen or tighten your line.

Difficult to describe. I always thought of it like the guy is doing in this clip. I know it's not a long corner but you'll see and hear the throttle control is never still.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wyrFs
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Alexio
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
It's a CG not a GP bike just ride the thing and have fun.


Oh come on, treating my CG like a GP bike is having fun Wink and besides, it's still a bike capable of braking the speed limit of most / all of the roads in the country and therefore I think it's a good idea if I practice such things as braking while cornering.

Unless you suggest that I don't use the CG to learn such things and the first time I ever got on a big bike I have not even limited experience of such things? Razz
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will never give up his CG. I look at my fuel gauge more as a progress bar than a fuel gauge.
G: With my GSXR I do often effectively use it as a scooter with a clutch in town.
ms51ves3: why does it need 500 miles? Are you teaching it how to be a piston?
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Paulington
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PostPosted: 17:21 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Difficult to describe. I always thought of it like the guy is doing in this clip. I know it's not a long corner but you'll see and hear the throttle control is never still.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wyrFs


Youtube wrote:
So this is the License test in japan is it?


Laughing.

Some brilliant bike handling there.
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Nai
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
The ultimate aim + that video


OK, I am impressed! That was good!

On the throttle thing, i gotta get into the habit of that. Again being a cyclist I have pretty much used my front brake exclusively for control over the last 14 years. I am thinking that's a real ingrained bad habit that will take a while to crack. Will be trying to do the journey tomorrow relying on my front brake as little as possible. I was noticing today I do actually use my front brake constantly and almost never the back. Even when going round corners Very Happy If I lower the throttle I also always grab the clutch. Ill get it, just a lot of carry over habits from cycling is all Smile
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's not always sensibly possible to do this but you should always be able to stop in the space you can see.
Especialy if you have had this happen a few times on the same corner common sence would dictate that you should be going slower around said corner so that when you see the stopped cars you can stop.

Also sort of on the same topic, there is an enterance to a roundabout off of the M25 on my way to work where this happens maybe once a week, I make sure I filter as soon as I can, don't want a car flying around the corner and not being able to stop, I don't think a c_dug sandwich would taste too good Laughing

c_dug
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Nai
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
I try to take it as slow as possible but its one of them annoying bits of road where the speed limit is considered the minimum speed and people are not the brightest at 7:30 in the morning, I don't think it occurs to them someone with L plates might want to take the iron bridge corner a bit slower than 40 Very Happy
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmmm, is that the corner where there is the big blue warehouse on the outside of the bend with the small wind tubine type things on top?

c_dug
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Nai
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PostPosted: 20:12 - 24 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Think its blue... It has the big turbines... Its OK on the way home cause there's nothing much to slow the traffic immediately after the bend the turbine side of the road. Its when I am heading in the Brent direction I have the problem. Everyone seems to brake hard when the bus pulls in after the bend. Probably means everyone's just driving to close to each other, but even with a 2 second gap, if I come round that corner and see brake lights everyone seems to come to a near stop and I have to slow right down.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 25 May 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it's just one of those things you pick up with experience.

c_dug
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