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tomf
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Carvel
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 Posted: 20:54 - 09 Oct 2010  Post subject: |
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They dont have cats.
Its never going to be as fast as a yz.
Have you tried a new plug?
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Carvel
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| Posted: 21:07 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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Ah fair enough, I didnt think they did.
My mates didnt when we took his apart.
Learn somthing new every day. 
What sort of speed are you getting out of it?
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2002 Aprilia RSV1000R, Cbr600Fs, Mk1 B12, Vfr400 NC30...
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MaybeGuy
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| Posted: 21:24 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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DT stands for de tuned
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!! 
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith
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Carvel
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| Posted: 21:27 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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Put a YZ motor in it.
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woll
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| Posted: 21:41 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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There's nothing you can do to make it go like a yz, you could improve the feel of the bike by getting a powervalve servo and setting it up correctly, and buying a decent exhaust such as dep or big one/de restricting your standard exhaust. All the info on how to make the dt faster is on the dt forum.
Oh and unless your's an RE/X model then you won't have a cat in your exhaust.
____________________
Current Bike- Suzuki DRZ400 SM K6
Previous bikes - Derbi Senda Xtreme50r, Honda CBR 125, Kawasaki ZZR 250, Yamaha DT125R, Suzuki Bandit 600, Gas gas ec 250, Honda CBR600FW
Damaged spleen, damaged kindey, 2 popped lungs, 2 broken ribs, broken face, broken wrist and 5 back fractures... remember kids walls hurt |
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Posted: 22:15 - 09 Oct 2010  Post subject: |
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| tomf wrote: | Wow this forum has really done down this site this is like getting blood from a stone.
I brought a DT because i like the way they ride, but its just slow, so far i havent had one reply to my question of what i can do to get the DT125 to keep up with the YZ and CR. |
As Caravel Says, put a YZ engine in it!
Or ask you mates on YZ & CR o slow down for you!
Its like trying to get blood from a stone, becouse that is what you are trying to do.
YZ125 is a dedicated race machine, like a propper Grand-Prix TZ125 race-bike, and has about as MUCH in common with the YZ Moto-Crosser as the TZ-GP Bike has with the TZR road bike.
Ie, it has two wheels, and an engine roughly the same capacity & configuration, but about there the similarities end.
Be like buying a TZR Sports-Bike, and entering it into a 125 Road-Race and complaining that you were being lapped!
DT is a road-bike, designed to offer reliable transport to and from work or college on a daily basis, with the capability to head off down the odd dirt track from time to time.
Its designed to have 'enough' performance to be reasonably interesting, but to be reliable enough to be practically useful, and cover many thousands of miles without major serving or anything breaking.
YZ is a pure competition machine. It has ONE purpose and that is to go fast. And it ONLY has to do it for a few hours at a time, at infrequent intervals, between which it can enjoy lots of very expensive and intensive servicing, to keep it making the kind of power that'll let it pottentially win races.
YZ's of recent vintage offer around 30bhp, depending on vintage.
Bog-stock out the show-room DT will most often be restricted to the Learner-Legal 12bhp.
'Full-Power' DT125's deliver about 22bhp, which is a lot more than the standard version, but a lot less than a YZ.
But, De-Restricting a DT is a lot more involved than simply knocking a washer out the exhaust, and it depends on what variant you have as to what needs to be done.
Fact that you claim to have a 2002 model, and then say its got a pegged Power-Valve doesn't sound promicing.
They have had full servo YPVS on the DT since about 1992, though which suggests that your engine (if not the bike!) is of earlier vintage than that, or some-one, for some bizzare reason has decided to 'de-restrict' its engine by removing a power aid!
Following that clue, though, suggests that you have an originally Learner-Legal 12bhp, non-power-valve engine at least, that some-one has muggered about with, and attempted to de-restrict, probably badly.
Badly de-restricting a DT can often make them LESS powerful, but even if not, it doesn't bode well, and implies even if you went back to basics and rebuilt the thing to original, full-power spec, you wouldn't get as much as the last of the line engines, maybe 20bhp of so AT BEST.
Presuming the BEST, and you DO have a 2002 model, with full and operational servo mechanism, and it has been properly 'De-Restricted' to Full-Power' spec, you are still a good deal down on the power that a YZ will have.
Getting it anything like close will take tuning BEYOND standard. Could be ported, and tuned, fitted with a better exhaust and bigger carb and stuff, BUT, the DT engine is NOT the same as the YZ, which has a mechanical power valve and cast in boost ports and stuff, it has an electronic power valve, so you can forget simple subs like swapping barels & exhausts for YZ ones, as an 'easy' fix.
Its all 'do-able', but at a cost, and difficulty, that REALLY isn't worth it....... just go buy a YZ engine, its cheaper and easier.... better still, get the WHOLE YZ and use as is, easier still, and hardly any more expensive!
BUT, you are getting a RACE bike, not a ROAD bike, and it will go fast...... but only for the number of hours stated in the service schedule before it needs a complete tear down, re-bore or barel re-plate, and possibly a new crank-shaft and 'stuff'.
Now, JUST becouse you dont LIKE the answer, doesn't make it WRONG, and it doesn't make us stupid or condescending.
COULD take the piss and tell you you need a pink-power-band, becouse thats the sort of answer you want, the 'cheap & easy' answer all, but sorry, it dont exist.
You bought your DT for fun about the farm...... should do that well enough, enjoy.
Want to go Racing YZ's or CR's, go get a YZ or CR and go Scrambling........
Its horses for courses.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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woll
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| Posted: 22:26 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | The first big post by teflon i have bothered to read |
He's right, you want to keep up with your mates get a race tuned bike not a road bike.
____________________
Current Bike- Suzuki DRZ400 SM K6
Previous bikes - Derbi Senda Xtreme50r, Honda CBR 125, Kawasaki ZZR 250, Yamaha DT125R, Suzuki Bandit 600, Gas gas ec 250, Honda CBR600FW
Damaged spleen, damaged kindey, 2 popped lungs, 2 broken ribs, broken face, broken wrist and 5 back fractures... remember kids walls hurt |
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tomf
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| Posted: 22:51 - 09 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | tomf wrote: | Wow this forum has really done down this site this is like getting blood from a stone.
I brought a DT because i like the way they ride, but its just slow, so far i havent had one reply to my question of what i can do to get the DT125 to keep up with the YZ and CR. |
As Caravel Says, put a YZ engine in it!
Or ask you mates on YZ & CR o slow down for you!
Its like trying to get blood from a stone, becouse that is what you are trying to do.
YZ125 is a dedicated race machine, like a propper Grand-Prix TZ125 race-bike, and has about as MUCH in common with the YZ Moto-Crosser as the TZ-GP Bike has with the TZR road bike.
Ie, it has two wheels, and an engine roughly the same capacity & configuration, but about there the similarities end.
Be like buying a TZR Sports-Bike, and entering it into a 125 Road-Race and complaining that you were being lapped!
DT is a road-bike, designed to offer reliable transport to and from work or college on a daily basis, with the capability to head off down the odd dirt track from time to time.
Its designed to have 'enough' performance to be reasonably interesting, but to be reliable enough to be practically useful, and cover many thousands of miles without major serving or anything breaking.
YZ is a pure competition machine. It has ONE purpose and that is to go fast. And it ONLY has to do it for a few hours at a time, at infrequent intervals, between which it can enjoy lots of very expensive and intensive servicing, to keep it making the kind of power that'll let it pottentially win races.
YZ's of recent vintage offer around 30bhp, depending on vintage.
Bog-stock out the show-room DT will most often be restricted to the Learner-Legal 12bhp.
'Full-Power' DT125's deliver about 22bhp, which is a lot more than the standard version, but a lot less than a YZ.
But, De-Restricting a DT is a lot more involved than simply knocking a washer out the exhaust, and it depends on what variant you have as to what needs to be done.
Fact that you claim to have a 2002 model, and then say its got a pegged Power-Valve doesn't sound promicing.
They have had full servo YPVS on the DT since about 1992, though which suggests that your engine (if not the bike!) is of earlier vintage than that, or some-one, for some bizzare reason has decided to 'de-restrict' its engine by removing a power aid!
Following that clue, though, suggests that you have an originally Learner-Legal 12bhp, non-power-valve engine at least, that some-one has muggered about with, and attempted to de-restrict, probably badly.
Badly de-restricting a DT can often make them LESS powerful, but even if not, it doesn't bode well, and implies even if you went back to basics and rebuilt the thing to original, full-power spec, you wouldn't get as much as the last of the line engines, maybe 20bhp of so AT BEST.
Presuming the BEST, and you DO have a 2002 model, with full and operational servo mechanism, and it has been properly 'De-Restricted' to Full-Power' spec, you are still a good deal down on the power that a YZ will have.
Getting it anything like close will take tuning BEYOND standard. Could be ported, and tuned, fitted with a better exhaust and bigger carb and stuff, BUT, the DT engine is NOT the same as the YZ, which has a mechanical power valve and cast in boost ports and stuff, it has an electronic power valve, so you can forget simple subs like swapping barels & exhausts for YZ ones, as an 'easy' fix.
Its all 'do-able', but at a cost, and difficulty, that REALLY isn't worth it....... just go buy a YZ engine, its cheaper and easier.... better still, get the WHOLE YZ and use as is, easier still, and hardly any more expensive!
BUT, you are getting a RACE bike, not a ROAD bike, and it will go fast...... but only for the number of hours stated in the service schedule before it needs a complete tear down, re-bore or barel re-plate, and possibly a new crank-shaft and 'stuff'.
Now, JUST becouse you dont LIKE the answer, doesn't make it WRONG, and it doesn't make us stupid or condescending.
COULD take the piss and tell you you need a pink-power-band, becouse thats the sort of answer you want, the 'cheap & easy' answer all, but sorry, it dont exist.
You bought your DT for fun about the farm...... should do that well enough, enjoy.
Want to go Racing YZ's or CR's, go get a YZ or CR and go Scrambling........
Its horses for courses. |
First of all i would like to say thank you, for actually answering my question, and giving my the sort of information that i was asking for.
Im not sure why pinning the power valve surgests that its an earlier bike, could you explain how this does please?
I have google searched DT125 and my shape is defonately the 2000+ shape bike, so i have no reason to belive its not a 2002 bike.
How do i set up the power valve on my engine is it is a 2002 bike, as it sounds like the previouse owner has pinned it open.
Ill have a tinker with the DT engine first, to see if i can get it to pick up quicker but if now ill look out for a YZ engine. |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 03:22 - 10 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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| tomf wrote: | First of all i would like to say thank you, for actually answering my question, and giving my the sort of information that i was asking for.
Im not sure why pinning the power valve surgests that its an earlier bike, could you explain how this does please?
I have google searched DT125 and my shape is defonately the 2000+ shape bike, so i have no reason to belive its not a 2002 bike.
How do i set up the power valve on my engine is it is a 2002 bike, as it sounds like the previouse owner has pinned it open.
Ill have a tinker with the DT engine first, to see if i can get it to pick up quicker but if now ill look out for a YZ engine. |
Right IF your bike was post 2002, the engine in it should have a fully operational, electronically actuated YPVS system.
A Rotary Valve in the exhaust port that changes the port timing and resonance according to load and revs, by twisting, when a servo motor is told to move it by a micro-processor.
IF your bike was a 2002 model, with a 2002 spec engine, there would be absolutely NO reason to 'peg' the Power-Valve in the open possition. The Micro-Processor would move it there when conditions demanded. Would also move it to the closed possition when conditions demanded THAT, and all points in between.
I cant remember the exact years, but the Electronic YPVS system was introduced on 'full-Power' foreign market DT's around 1987.... ie rather a long time ago.
Restricted UK Bikes came supplied WITHOUT the servo mechanism, as it wasn't needed. To meet the 12bhp restriction, the power-valve could be 'pegged' in a lower possition, to cover all revs and loads for the stare of tune that engine was in.
When De-Restricting post '87 DT's, you couldn't fully de-restrict them, becouse they didn't have all the YPVS gubbins to work the power-valve, and they needed some conventional tuning on top.
Hence to get more power out of a post '87 motor, the common thing was to fit an aftermarket expansion chamber exhaust, remove the power-valve and replace it, pegged in the fully open possition, and re-jet the carb.
Didn't make as much PEAK power as the full-power bikes, and was notoriousely lacking in power in the mid-range, becouse of the power-valve shift, but gave a couple of BHP at peak revs.
Made the bikes particularly peaky, giving a great sensation of power when it came in, and a few extra mph on the road, but apauling mpg becouse of the chronically inefficient mid-range tuning, while off-road the wild power delivery and lack of mid-range meant they were incredibly un tractable, and unforgiving.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU GOT!
By about 1995, they had given up on the pegged power-valve DT engine, and all versions got the fully operational electronically controlled YPVS Servo-Mechanism, BUT UK bikes got servo 'maps' that limited the servo travel as part of the restriction pack to meet UK 12bhp learner Limits.
So, a genuine 2002 model DT, by MY reckoning have had a fully functioning power-valve system, and to de-restrict it, all that would have been needed was the full-power black-box to control it.
It is POSSIBLE that some-one had the idea to just peg the valve open and do away with it, RATHER than buy a black box.
If so, you get the same effect as tweeking an 87 MKIII motor, ie negligible top end gain, loss of useful mid-range, but as the later DTR spec motors were optimised in the porting for the YPVS, probably even worse.
An eight year old DT125 is not a cheap bit of kit. Fully functional and road legal, it would be worth about £700.
Why would any-one hack one into a field bike?
There are three likely reasons:-
a) Its been nicked. Road gear stripped off, sold off as 'Off-Road Use Only' (possibly with a claim that its as below)
b) Cat B (I think) Write Off, declared 'Scrap' by an insurance company, due to theft and or accident damage, so severe as to make the machine structurally unsafe, and NOT fit to be returned to the road. Sold as scrap, for field use or spares ONLY.
c) An Owner has phucked it beyond ecconomical repair, and sold it spares or repair.
Option C) is quite likely with a DT, they dont often get the care they ought to in the hands of learner numpties, and the engines get thrashed to bits, until the bores go, at which point they take them to bits, and often cant put them back together.... worse they have ideas about 'tuning' them and do daft things like try pegging power valves....
Quite possible that an Option C bike might have been punted around as a 'project' for many moons, being 'fixed up' by any number of people aquiring parts from any number of other bikes of any age along the way.
DT mongerels are very common. Early bvikes with late motors. Late bikes with early motors. Early bikes repaired after crash-damage with later body-work. Later bikes repaired for crash damage with earlier (drum braked!) front ends..... perms and combinations are endless!
You just cant tell.
So your FIRST job should be some old fasioned detective work, finding frame and engine numbers to work out what you HAVE got and what it should look like and what spec it should be.
A Haynes manual wouldn't go a miss in that process to tell you the different spec and spec changes of different variants of different ages.
IF, the seller was not spouting tosh..... they often do..... and the power-valve has been pegged..... well the FIRST thing to do, is to put that back to the closed or 'normal' possition. Whether the bike was originally servo equipped or not.
The lost mid-range, off-road wont be doing you ANY favours what-so ever.
Other than that, theres not a lot I can suggest. De-Restricting a DT 'properly' is not an easy task, and it does depend alot on what age and spec the engine is, and whether its all there.
IF yours has had YPVS reoved, finding the bits to make it operative could be costly. If it DIDN'T have YPVS to begin with, more so.
Even then, you have some other tuning to do, which is likely to cost, and possibly some other 'stuff' to sort.
IF your bike is 2002, likely to have had the electronic speed limiter in the ignition, worked off the speedo. If THAT was originally fitted, but the street gear has been removed, including teh speedo and its wiring...... then quite possible that the speed limiter is constantly engaged retarding teh ignition at ALL speeds, limiting power.
If its an earlier engine in a later bike, the CDI Ignition module might not match the engine, or be providing the right signal, or ANY number of niggles like that.
It ALL comes down to the spec and variant, and whats been chooped or changed.
AND you REALLY need to know whats what to make sense of it, work out what you have, and how to get the best out of it.....
BUT even if you succeeed, you AINT goin to get the thing up to the level where its showing CR's or YZ's a clean pair of heels....... or even CLOSE!
JUST to get the thing as good as it OUGHT to be, like around 12 'useable' learner legal bhp, may takle a fair bit of work, while finding anything over that, likely to take a lot more know-how, time, effort and ultimately money.
As to the idea of looking for a YZ engine.... good luck! You didn't pick up on the hint there did you?
YZ's are dedicated race bikes, that have VERY limited engine life. There are a LOT more YZ's about than there are engines for them, as so many get thrashed to death, and blown up, becouse rebuilding them properly is so expensive.
IF you find one, it will either be phucked, or it'lll be expensive.... probably both, becouse people WANT YZ engines to fix YZ's!
And if you DID get a YZ engine, and it did drop straight on the DT engine mounts in the DT frame, you'd need more still to make it work, like the YZ exhaust, carburettor, air-box, and electrics..... which may all need adapting to sit in the DT frame.
You'll ACTUALLY find it easier to find a YZ engine IN a complete YZ...... and it probably WONT be much more expensive than an engine on its own.
And a GENUINE YZ will, funnily enough be able to keep up with a YZ...... becouse it will not only have a YZ engine, but it'll also have the YZ's lighter frame and better suspension, and greater ground-clearance etc etc etc....
As said, they may both have wheels and a similar shape and sized engine, but they are VERY different bikes......
And from where you are now, not even really knowing what we are talking about when we mention the power-valve and 'pegging', you are on a HUGELY steep learning curve, kid!
BUT starting some-where, Haynes Manual, look for numbers on the head-stock and on the crank cases, and see what you can find out to DEFINATIVELY identify the age, model and variant of your frame and engine....... then use the pics specs and scematics to work out the detail differences from there, and TRY and get the thing back to some kind of 'standard' condition.
As said, even a 12bhp Learner Spec will probably be more rideable and point to point faster over the rough than the thing is at the moment, and gives you a starting point to try and improve from.... though ultimately, IF keeping up with a YZ is the ambition, an YZ is the real solution, not an EVEN more mongralised DT!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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stevo as b4
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| Posted: 23:23 - 10 Oct 2010 Post subject: |
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s a fun field bike bearing in mind the capacity, then the DTR is as good as any other 2stroke LC trailbike tbh. With a properly de-restricted engine working correctly and giving you somewhere in the region of 22-25 crankshaf bhp, and with lower than std gearing, -2t on the front sproket or the equivalent change in ratio with a larger rear sprocket, then it should feel pretty lively and fun for messing about on or even taking on tracks and for very basic enduro riding etc. You need the YPVS system working to give you a tractable engine at low and high revs, although if your just racing about, and have lower gearing than std then keeping it on the pipe is not difficult, and doesnt need lots of clutch fanning like a proper MX'er either.
The DTR wil be fast enough to have fun on, but it's not a full blown enduro or MX tool. It can't keep up with a recent YZ or CR from the last 10years or newer. Those bikes are off road race bikes. The question is WTF are you doing riding with guys on those kind of bikes with a DT125R? It's a fun bike and a bloody good 125 trail machine, but it's not a competition machine or even a very focused trail bike these days. It will be good for mucking about on and having a laugh on and off road, but on MX tracks where you'd find YZ's and CR's etc, it's so far out of it's depth it's untrue.
Either change your type of riding, or get a new bike designed for racing if that is what you and the other guys with the MX'ers are into. |
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