regulator/rectifier foobar again!

[skatefreak]

Right,
So went to the shops, stopped by the airport and took the opportunity to rev the bike with the multi meter and its officioal, the reg has blown again and thus my new battery is buggered to...

Engine off, battery at around 12.8'ish V
Ignition on and it drops straight to 12.4
1,500rpm - 12.5
3,000rpm - 12.8
5,000rpm - 12.2
above it drops to anywhere between 7-8v

Soooooooo.....
I have the service manual and there are steps to check a few things such as the charging coil resistence/leakage test but it'll take me a little while to get round to all that.

So i was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what could be blowing up these regulators and killing my batteries

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

At first glance I am guessing alternator output or a short somewhere on the loom which is draining power and/or causing the rectifier to blow.
The rectifier was a common problem back in the day for NS125R's and NSR's, can't see how it would have changed.

https://m13online.com/forum/index.php?topic=4947.0

Other people here are saying stator winding breakdown, you will be able to verify this with an alternator output test.
I am thinking somewhere around 13 and 14 volts.

https://www.125ccsportsbikes.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50692

1,500rpm - 12.5
3,000rpm - 12.8
5,000rpm - 12.2
Could wrong but may be the windings on the stator.

Wait for a more qualified view though. I have electrical installation level2 knowledge but in this case it's better coming from a mechaninc.
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[lihp]

remember the regulator failing isn't a fault, but a symptom.

Carefully inspect all wiring, and the alternator, check all grounds also.

[skatefreak]

Am mid checking the wiring...
Sadly none of my wires match thoes in the service manual (mines the newer and manuals for the older).
I guess this highlights the use of an up to date manual heh.

Anywho, making my way through trying to cautiously figure out which wires are what without blowing the multimeter up or shorting everything out.

Some things coming out with slightly higher ohm ratings but i havnt identified anything substancially amiss (although i cant figure out the rectifier loom connector wire colours

Best regards

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Didn't know what year the bike was, tell us what year,s ee what we can do.
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

2001 NSR 125 RY.

I have checked almost everything in the manual (hard to do it accuratly as i'm still not 100% on all the wires) bar the r/r itself so far but am just trying to track down the *coil* from alains NSRTips doc but not having much joy.

I am not sure if it is one of the blocks burried in the loom but am not sure really

Guess i better check the r/r just for the sake of it to see what it comes out...

Also try find the grounds to check.

Best regards

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Found these, you could give them a try .
Just wait for the time to elapse as a free user.
https://rapidshare.com/#!download|701|228170550|NSR_125_Service_manual.rar|63140

https://rs788tl3.rapidshare.com/#!download|788|362862382|pdftown.com_NSRmanual.zip|66188
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

Cheers for the heads up there,
It seems like the manuals for the later model NSR's are exceptionally hard to come by online, am thinking it may be worth picking one up from the dealer as I plan to do a full strip-down and rebuild the bike over the winter and spending all this time trying to identify which wire is what will just make life more complicated further down the line

Saying that, I'll give myself another 30 mins before I crack on with uni work to post some results and maybe PM alains :p heh.

Cheers again.

Best regards

-Jvr

PS, I am beginning to wonder if it may be connected to the CDI unit.
A while back when the reg went before I had issues with the engine tach going a little barmey and then it would just fall to 0 (as would the speedo) unless the lights were switched on (then they would work appropriatly) and then all electrical power would just vannish (although the engine would still run). This seemed to be fixed by the new reg/rec i put it. As this one has gone to I'm curious to see if this happens again but as its winter and gets dark I have to say I'm somewhat concerned lol

[SillyMe]

Arr! Right well that to me signifies an alternator issue which could also be related to a damaged stator.

"had a similar p[roblem with Grandson's NSR125. It turned out to be the stator windings broken down".
Source: https://www.125ccsportsbikes.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50692
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

You say that, and looking at the number i have here the only thing that stands out as not being within the recomended limits is the stator!

There are 3 yellow wires coming out which corrospond with each *coil* and its suggested they give 0.7 Ohms between each.

Checking Y-Y I get 1.2 *insert horse shoe*,

Between the red/black-green (charging coils for CDI) I get 120 (suggested 80-180Ohms),

The impulse coil gives 227 Ohms (suggested 180-280).

I think the next *Productive steps would be:
- Check out the *coil* (as its just refered to in NSRtips.doc (autotransformer with a primary black/yello and green wire and a secondary large black wire and cap - HT lead maybe?).
- Figure out the leakage test because at an alleged 3.41MOhms, somehow I think I did it wrong lol

Best regards

-Jvr

Ps, as much as i dont understand most of this I'm actually rather enjoying it! To much to quit for today just yet

PSS, also just as a side note, the indicators either take forever or dont come on atall when the engine is reving > 3,000'ish so i just pull the clutch in to let the rpm settle < that and they usually come on as the revs lower lol.

Even more bizarly they have always flashed at a much higher rate when the RPM is above 5,000 (with/without working regulation).

Maybe it would be an idea to look into the front indicator relays etc?
The front are regular bulbs but LED at the back but they do have a relay for them (previous owner cut/stripped and wrapped the wires by hand for that ).
I'm a little lost as to weather that could make a big difference really....

[SillyMe]

[skatefreak]

Hey,
that sounds positive and quiet encoraging, and i just about managed to keep up with you thanks to goodle
I am just not 100% sure where i'm looking for a carbon buildup (connectors/components in the engine alt compartment?)

I found this:
https://www.mmra.org.uk/marci/cb500/CB500R%20Workshop%20Manual%2014%20Charging%20System%20-%20Alternator.pdf

Rather usefull and seems to be a closer rec/reg than the pre 1995 compared to mine.

There does seem to be some buildup on the reg/rec pins, might be a little hard to reach as its somwhat enclosed. Off to find a toothbrush/wire brush/anything that may help

Best regards

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Not 100% but the red arrow looks to be the culprit.
Could be miles away as im'e not too sure where the pick ups are on these.
https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5206/dsc00008knb.jpg

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-NSR125RR-foxeye-ALTERNATOR-ROTOR-/140234361213?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item20a69e897d
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

Thats disturbing lol... (if your talking about the bit behind the flywheel!)
To say its a b*ll ach to get the flywheel off is an understatment as I dont have a puller...
I got my local honda place to pull the flywheel off my spair engine but thats in cambs at the moment...

From memory (centrifugal starter cog was playing up recently) I dont remember seeing anything amiss in there but I will pop the side off again and have a closer look at the components.

Do i have time now? hmmmm, might just try lol.

Best regards

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Lol yeah, you need an air gun to get them off or be very strong indeed. Take your time over it, pick bits up off ebay ETC over winter because this may be an expensive job.

I saw a pickup coil for one of thses on ebay too. https://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=nsr+125+pickup+coil+&_sacat=See-All-Categories
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[SillyMe]

LOl, gunna be an epic jouney I feel.
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

Cheers for the constructive input hetz lol.

But yes, further investigation by checking the output from the alternator ouput vs ground shows a whopping 0.5v when turning over the engine (it is worth point out the engine wasnt turning very fast but even without the spark plug in it didnt really help)!

This test should yeild 60V (how much would rpm effect this output?).

All that said i have a spare engine at home thats in pretty good nick so its up for canibalisation i guess heh.

Also when checking the loom for shorts i found there was 1 Ohm resistence between the - batt terminal and the -batt ground.

Could this be also be significant?

Back to postulating as the msr will be home in a few so no more tinkering till the morning i suspect

Cheers for the effort so far and i'm going to be racking my brain over this all night no doubt heh.

Best regards

-Jvr

Ps, maybe it would be an idea to pop home and bring back the whole alternator side of the spare engine (pickup/stator etc all the way up to the wiring loom?), substitute it and see what happens (accept for the pickup maybe, that would be mighty tricky)?

[SillyMe]

Needs to be on idle ideally. Change it anyway cos it sounds as though it's the culprit.

The advantage of star is the higher voltage at lower rpm which means a star would have to make 201 rpm to start charging at 12.6V where the Delta would require 340 rpm to start charging.

I would be testing for polarity to make sure there are no shorts.
(Inf act forget that for now, just change the alternator and stator if your spare is younger.

You will always read low ohm's resistivity readings when testing the resistance of wires from A to B.

You need to check the pickups are free of carbon.
Seen as youv'e wrecked it beyond recognition as was previously stated, you might as well do a full job.
Good lad!
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[skatefreak]

Right,
Results in:
Bike at idle and there is a good 130v (ac) indecated from the alternator - reg/rec.

Voltage accross the battery:
0 rpm - 12.7
idle(1.5k) - 13.3
3,000 - 13.3
5,000 - 13.5
>5,000 - 12'ish

Not to sure if this really helps, somewhat contradictory almost, maybe get the side off tomorow and check the internals

Would an intermittent short help to explain these results compared to the ones at the top?
Only differences between this test and the previous is the bike was riden a few miles prior to the first test and this one was done from stone cold...


-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Need a bike mechanic really to verify.

[skatefreak]

Same problem as before really,
when the other reg blew up the lights would get dimmer as the engine rpm got higher

I think the reg may be shot, that I'm willing to accept so its the cause that is concerning me...

Will pop to the honda dealer tomorow and see if they have any thoughts on the matter.

-Jvr

[SillyMe]

Yeah somethings draining the power and the battery is not charging.
Has to be rec related, loose earth or alternator. Get a mechanic to check the alternator output before you do anything.
They will do it for you for free as long as you put on the realy needy eye look. I do it works for me.
https://www.google.co.uk/products?q=nsr+125+regulator+rectifier&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=_TG7TLCODsK4jAeN5oynDg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQrQQwAw&output=nojs
____________________
Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior.
The man who says "I may be wrong, but -" does not believe there can be any such possibility
Owned and rode: Honda 100H, Honda MBX 125, Kawasaki AR 125, Suzuki RG 125 Pepsi, Honda NSR125 RK, Honda NRS 125 race bike, Suzuki GSXR 400 Bandit, Aprilia RS 125 O2, Honda CG125, Kawasaki KMX 125, Aprilia RS 125 O6, Suzuki XT225 and now Honda XR 400. ( A few scooters and other dead beats in between)

[Kickstart]

Hi

I doubt the battery is fried yet. Running a battery flat will shorten its life, but won't destroy it.

I would expect the voltage over the battery to be around 14.5V when the engine is revved.

I wouldn't be surprised if the stator is fried.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[SillyMe]