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Identical bikes, swapping plates and insurance?

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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Identical bikes, swapping plates and insurance? Reply with quote
I was hoping someone could shed some light on the following theoretical situations.

Situation 1

Let's say I buy bike 1 with 60,000 miles on the clock, reg date 2000.

I then insure myself on bike 1 fully for a year.

Then I buy bike 2 an identical bike as bike 1 but with 10,000 miles on the clock and reg date 2005.

Is it possible for me to effectively swap their V5 docs, plates and registrations around? So that I would be insured on the newer bike bike 2?

I mean officially (obviously just changing the plates around is not valid).

Could I send the changes to the VIN (to clarify VIN/Chassis number on the reg V5 and NOT on the bike itself), mileage, reg date etc to the DVLA and have the bikes plates swapped around.

Would the insurance then cover me on bike 2 with bike 1's insurance policy?

Situation 2

I buy bike 1, I insure it for a year with a monthly policy. I sell bike 1 and buy another bike, bike 2.

Would I be able to transfer the insurance policy over to the new bike, bike 2?

Last edited by spetom on 22:54 - 18 Oct 2010; edited 1 time in total
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Legally not really.

The registration is connected with the chassis number. The chassis number is the important bit. You could switch the registration from the 2000 bike to the 2005 bike, but not the other way round (you can't put a plate on a bike that would make it appear newer than it really is).

While you could swap the older plate to the newer bike the insurance company would want to know they are insuring a newer bike. And the DVLA would charge you for swapping the plate.

All the best

Keith
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Last edited by Kickstart on 22:32 - 18 Oct 2010; edited 1 time in total
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could probably drill out the rivets on the chassis, swap vins, and re-rivet. Not legal by all means.

Then you have the problem of engine numbers not matching. Bit of a hassle. Just get insurance the legal way.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:34 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
mysterious_rider wrote:
You could probably drill out the rivets on the chassis, swap vins, and re-rivet. Not legal by all means.


Also pointless as the important bit is the number stamped to the chassis.

All the best

Keith
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
mysterious_rider wrote:
You could probably drill out the rivets on the chassis, swap vins, and re-rivet. Not legal by all means.


Also pointless as the important bit is the number stamped to the chassis.

All the best

Keith



Depends, some bikes have the chassis numbers on plates riveted on. Hence why I said that, so you'd be swapping information.
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
mysterious_rider wrote:
You could probably drill out the rivets on the chassis, swap vins, and re-rivet. Not legal by all means.


Also pointless as the important bit is the number stamped to the chassis.

All the best

Keith


Yes I did mention the VIN number, which is the chassis number and I was under the impression it can be changed on the documents not on the bike (except on a few 125s). This is off the DVLA site:

Quote:
Your vehicle may need to be inspected by a DVLA local office. You must contact your nearest DVLA local office if you change:

* wheel plan
* body type
* vehicle identification number (VIN)
* chassis number
* frame number for motorcycles


Please don't answer if you don't know, I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.

spetom wrote:
I mean officially (obviously just changing the plates around is not valid).


Last edited by spetom on 22:49 - 18 Oct 2010; edited 3 times in total
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:45 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Never seen one that doesn't have it stamped on the frame as well and plenty with it just stamped on the frame with no extra plate. As far as I know the number stamped on the chassis is compulsory while the riveted on plate is optional.

All the best

Keith
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Nexus Icon
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Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:48 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems a bit risky, in an utterly fraudulent type way, just to save a few quids' worth of admin fee.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:

Please don't answer if you don't know, I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.


Doesn't mean they will happily do it. You have a fair chance that they will decide that changing the chassis means the bike is now of indeterminate age and so will get a Q plate.

The important bit that identifies a bike is the chassis number.

All the best

Keith
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nexus Icon wrote:
It seems a bit risky, in an utterly fraudulent type way, just to save a few quids' worth of admin fee.


spetom wrote:
I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:51 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
spetom wrote:

Please don't answer if you don't know, I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.


Doesn't mean they will happily do it. You have a fair chance that they will decide that changing the chassis means the bike is now of indeterminate age and so will get a Q plate.

The important bit that identifies a bike is the chassis number.

All the best

Keith


You're not changing the VIN on the chassis!! Just on the vehicle reg document!!
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spetom
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Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:


i don't quite understand what your trying to do?

the 80 quid it would cost you to change the plates round, would probably pay for the difference in insurance between an 00 and an 05 bike.


I'm not trying to do anything they are theoretical questions.

I can't see any reason why the DVLA would not allow you to register a plates of a newer bike onto an older one provided the VIN, Reg date and all other details are changed in the V5?

I know for a fact new racing cars have been known to be registered in decades old donor cars papers to become road worthy. (Just how they went about doing this I have no idea however).
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Nexus Icon
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Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 22:58 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:
Nexus Icon wrote:
It seems a bit risky, in an utterly fraudulent type way, just to save a few quids' worth of admin fee.


spetom wrote:
I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.


Then I'm not sure I see the point.

Why would you want to change the numbers?

Am I right in thinking that you want to replace the frame on a newer bike (damaged presumably) but can only find one from an older bike? I think (though I'm open to being proved wrong) that the frame IS essentially the bike and that what you'd effectively be doing is updating an old frame with parts from a five year newer bike. I'm pretty sure that's how the DVLA would see it.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:

Please don't answer if you don't know, I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.

spetom wrote:
I mean officially (obviously just changing the plates around is not valid).


Please don't ask stupid questions.

There is no official way of doing it, and even if there were I couldn't think of any reason why you'd want to beyond insurance fraud...
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nexus Icon wrote:

Am I right in thinking that you want to replace the frame on a newer bike (damaged presumably) but can only find one from an older bike? I think (though I'm open to being proved wrong) that the frame IS essentially the bike and that what you'd effectively be doing is updating an old frame with parts from a five year newer bike. I'm pretty sure that's how the DVLA would see it.


No I currently own 0 bikes at the moment, it's totally a theoretical question imagine someone wanted for whatever reason to try to deal with both situations above? Is it possible and how would they go about it?

What would the best way be about it?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:02 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:
I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.


You only reason for doing this (from your original post) seems to be to get away with changing the insuranace from one bike to another. As the bike is changing age the insurance would need to change anyway.

spetom wrote:

You're not changing the VIN on the chassis!! Just on the vehicle reg document!!


The only way to do this is by changing the chassis on the bike but not the engine, etc, hence the resulting bike is of indeterminate age. However the registration number goes with the chassis number.

Otherwise all you are doing is transferring the registration which the DVLA will change you for.

All the best

Keith
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
spetom wrote:

Please don't answer if you don't know, I did say officially change the VIN with the DVLA.

spetom wrote:
I mean officially (obviously just changing the plates around is not valid).


Please don't ask stupid questions.

There is no official way of doing it, and even if there were I couldn't think of any reason why you'd want to beyond insurance fraud...


It's really only a stupid question if you are stupid? Just how is it illegal if it's on the DVLA site?

How do you think people register classic race cars, which have never been road registered as classic race cars? There is no way to do it without a donor car.
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Nexus Icon
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 23:03 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ohhhh, if it's totally hypothetical then I'd suggest you go with option 2 on your original post. Buy a bike, insure it, sell it, buy another bike, transfer insurance to new bike, etc.
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mysterious_rider
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Joined: 11 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Never seen one that doesn't have it stamped on the frame as well and plenty with it just stamped on the frame with no extra plate. As far as I know the number stamped on the chassis is compulsory while the riveted on plate is optional.

All the best

Keith


Erm,

my rx50. Mine had just a plate riveted on. Nothing else.

And multiple road legal pitbikes/some monkeys as far as im aware.

It's quite popular in the monkeybike scene to VIN swap. As the frames/upgraded frames come with blank vins. You simply rivet yours on. I'm pretty sure it's not legal mind. Laughing

But a few even run their road monkeys with no vins at all if they can't rivet them on (stamped frames and they choose to upgrade to a blank frame)
Don't seem to get much hassle from the police (surprisingly) Maybe it's just a massive grey area.

Stamped frame seems to be the norm.
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spetom
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nexus Icon wrote:
Ohhhh, if it's totally hypothetical then I'd suggest you go with option 2 on your original post. Buy a bike, insure it, sell it, buy another bike, transfer insurance to new bike, etc.


Ah so in situation 2 there is a solution, you can actually transfer insurance to another bike?

Didn't know this existed as I've never had to do it. Does this exist if you pay up front for an annual insurance or only monthly? I take it there is a penalty? Right?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:

I know for a fact new racing cars have been known to be registered in decades old donor cars papers to become road worthy. (Just how they went about doing this I have no idea however).


Basically fraudulently. It is a fiddle to get a car on the road. In theory you need a certain amount of the original vehicle to keep the registration.

All the best

Keith
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mad4it028
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PostPosted: 23:07 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes you can do it its called ringing, idea 2 is the right and only legal way of doing it
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Nexus Icon
World Chat Champion



Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:
Nexus Icon wrote:
Ohhhh, if it's totally hypothetical then I'd suggest you go with option 2 on your original post. Buy a bike, insure it, sell it, buy another bike, transfer insurance to new bike, etc.


Ah so in situation 2 there is a solution, you can actually transfer insurance to another bike?

Didn't know this existed as I've never had to do it. Does this exist if you pay up front for an annual insurance or only monthly? I take it there is a penalty? Right?


Not all insurers charge for this sort of change but unless the bikes are identical then there will probably be an amount to pay or refund depending on the difference in insurance premium pro rata over the remainder of the policy.
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ms51ves3
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
Quote:
I can't see any reason why the DVLA would not allow you to register a plates of a newer bike onto an older one provided the VIN, Reg date and all other details are changed in the V5?



if you want to put an 05 plate on an 00 bike, you would have to:


find an 05 plate on retention

contact the dvla and give them the retention certificate

you then get a new v5 posted to the registered keeper with the new plate.

you then get a physical plate made up.


You can't do that Confused
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 18 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
spetom wrote:

Didn't know this existed as I've never had to do it. Does this exist if you pay up front for an annual insurance or only monthly? I take it there is a penalty? Right?


Depends on the insurance company. Some companies will allow you to have multiple bikes on one policy. However changing the details can result in them charging an administration fee (often £30).

Quote:

I can't see any reason why the DVLA would not allow you to register a plates of a newer bike onto an older one provided the VIN, Reg date and all other details are changed in the V5?


Because it is seen as an easy way for people to make a vehicle look newer and so worth more when sold. Basically a rule to stop fraud.

All the best

Keith
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Last edited by Kickstart on 23:11 - 18 Oct 2010; edited 1 time in total
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