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A Utopian Society.

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Visitor Q
$25 whore



Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Huxley covers my views very well;

https://danliterature.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/aldous-huxley-island.jpg

Read it.
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SirEdward
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bonny wrote:
Huxley covers my views very well;


Read it.


AFAIR. It's rather anti-Utopian, isn't it? Smile


To everyone: this is a must-see if you think you have anything to contribute to this topic:

Dr. Michio Kaku about Future Civilizations
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"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune""
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
SirEdward wrote:


AFAIR. It's rather anti-Utopian, isn't it? Smile


You're thinking of Brave New World, which was a false utopia and was more of a description of a 'soft-dictatorship'... ir argument with Orwells 1984.

Island is about a true utopia, called Pala, that works autonomously, but engenders jealousy over it's natural resources. If anything it is anti micro-state utopia within a capitalist agenda... but certainly is anything but anti-utopian.
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From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...
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Chris750
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Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy,

if you impose such a tax on business, it drives the cost of the product up which means the customer buys abroad and the business still loses its customer base.

oldpink
Quote:
thats the problem, no one should rule, it should be down to common consensus and everyone should have there say
not left up to corrupt politicians or people that abuse there powers (dictators)


Everyone is not created equal.
That is another issue, the average man on the street has no idea how things should be run and leaving the decisions to democratic vote can generally be more harmful. You may have someone who has looked at all the options and votes wiseley and their vote gets cancelled by a someone who knows nothing of the issues.
A low life uneducated scum bag has the same right of vote as a proffesor who has spent his whole life studying the issues at hand.
There are alot more uneducated scumbags than people who are qualified to make the right decision.

Maybe we could have voting on merit, everyone is entitled to a vote , but you can earn more.
Graduates could get another vote.
People who take a course explaining all the nuances of the issues at hand in todays politics could get another still.
People who have demostrated skill in relevant areas could get more votes.
Or maybe a vote per IQ point and its doubled if you pass a test showing you are politically aware.

I have no idea what would make a utopian society. I do think trying to be totally fair and giving everyone a say does drag down the average quality of opinion. I would have no idea how to correct this as everything is open to abuse, how do we trust somoeone to make decisions for us without knowing all their motives.
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Chris750
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Blurredman wrote:
Has anyone here actually read the book 'Utopia' by Thomas More (Henry VIII Lord Chancellor) first published 1516?


Yes I have a copy. Prefer Huxleys book, though.
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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have no idea.

But I feel it would involve a holo-deck and a replicator somewhere along the line.

Atleast I'd be happy, you lot can fuck off.

Wink
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Visitor Q
$25 whore



Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
pa_broon74 wrote:
I have no idea.

But I feel it would involve a holo-deck and a replicator somewhere along the line.

Atleast I'd be happy, you lot can fuck off.

Wink


You say that, that is the biggest problem with Utopia, satisfying the masses. You either genetically/hormonally/behaviourally standardise, or type and separate...

Neither of which really smacks of freedom.
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From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...
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Hazylogic
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bonny wrote:

You're thinking of Brave New World, which was a false utopia and was more of a description of a 'soft-dictatorship'... ir argument with Orwells 1984.


My guilty pleasure at the moment is Brave New World. Thumbs Up
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Simple

Rig the joint to blow, tell all of the world leaders to step down, shut up and payout, or...

https://www.aidis.org/img/big_red_button.jpg
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Kwaks
I'm not a fast rider



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PostPosted: 17:19 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bonny wrote:
[
You say that, that is the biggest problem with Utopia, satisfying the masses. You either genetically/hormonally/behaviourally standardise, or type and separate...

Neither of which really smacks of freedom.


My Utopia wouldn't have masses, only my selected few.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Chris750 wrote:
Itchy,

if you impose such a tax on business, it drives the cost of the product up which means the customer buys abroad and the business still loses its customer base.



Ray Kurzweil predicts one world government by 2030....

Also almost all other countries are having the same problems in that once wages increase the automated process starts to look much better than previously.
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SirEdward
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Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kwaks wrote:
Bonny wrote:
[
You say that, that is the biggest problem with Utopia, satisfying the masses. You either genetically/hormonally/behaviourally standardise, or type and separate...

Neither of which really smacks of freedom.


My Utopia wouldn't have masses, only my selected few.


Kwaks Utopia is achievable and is the only one which would be sustainable.

As I said: Depopulation of the human race to n persons. With depopulation comes great responsibility of not letting 'the masses' breed, also promoting sciences at every stage of a person's life.

P.S. Highly recommended paper "The Tragedy of the Commons" by Garrett Hardin written in 1968.

Quote:
The tragedy of the commons develops in this way. Picture a pasture open to all. It is to be expected that each herdsman will try to keep as many cattle as possible on the commons. Such an arrangement may work reasonably satisfactorily for centuries because tribal wars, poaching, and disease keep the numbers of both man and beast well below the carrying capacity of the land. Finally, however, comes the day of reckoning, that is, the day when the long-desired goal of social stability becomes a reality. At this point, the inherent logic of the commons remorselessly generates tragedy.


Smile
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"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune""
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dodsi
Dirty Carny



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PostPosted: 17:42 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Something Like the Matrix, where everyone is plugged into a machine. Without anything you perceive as being "real" everyone could have their own version of reality regardless of things like budgets and money etc. So long as everything "felt real" it would all be good times for all.
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SirEdward
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Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
dodsi wrote:
Something Like the Matrix, where everyone is plugged into a machine. Without anything you perceive as being "real" everyone could have their own version of reality regardless of things like budgets and money etc. So long as everything "felt real" it would all be good times for all.


Sir, but what of the rest of the Universe? Do not extrapolate our miserably lives on planet Earth onto the rest of the Cosmos. Very Happy

P.S. Such system would be in great regard when it comes to prolonged manned space travel. Wink
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"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune""
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colin1
Captain Safety



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
SirEdward wrote:
colin1 wrote:

So I'd say Utopian society would be a lot like our society, but people had all managed to get what they wanted out of life, right work-life balance etc.


You will eat your own words in 5 to 10 years after another world war as a consequence of your desired work-life balance. Yawn.


How would my desired work-life balance result in a world war ?

We dont have them anymore anyway. Countries are too interdependant with trade for it to be worth bothering with.
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SirEdward
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PostPosted: 18:08 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:

How would my desired work-life balance result in a world war ?

We dont have them anymore anyway. Countries are too interdependant with trade for it to be worth bothering with.


You keep telling yourself that. While you're at it, ask the Americans about their work-balance of taking loans of expected appreciated of their property values and how it is working out for them.

Aaand if you're that dedicated of enlightening yourself, ask the UN how it feels about the current demographic layout on the planet. Thumbs Up Very Happy

My point being: you will not see anything similar to what we've had before in regard to work-balance in the 2000 decade, in regards to the topic of Utopia or the current situation. In the current situation of foreign & domestic affairs of Western nations you get a World War down the road of this depression.

No disrespect meant.

Post Scriptum: There are trading wars, currency manipulation and wars already running as of 4 months ago, I could list all the participants but please do research on work-life balances yourself, will you? Wink
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"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune""
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
colin1 wrote:


How would my desired work-life balance result in a world war ?

We dont have them anymore anyway. Countries are too interdependant with trade for it to be worth bothering with.



Simply because the standard of living in the UK even quite frugal living can't be afforded by either the individual or the state. I'm not talking about how much YOU earn in a job btw.

Ask yourself this simply, why should I be paid more than a bloke in India or China?

If you really think about it what makes the UK so special the people here deserve their standard of living?

There is simply nothing special or unique about the UK anymore other than history and the current fairly decent infrastructure.

I mean we export very little, we have very few natural resources which are in high demand, we are not technological leaders and we have a high tax burden.

Indians and Chinese have proven they can do the manufacturing jobs, they are starting to build their own computer processors and build native technology now. So why should you and me be paid more?

All we've got left is a sense of entitlement........ unfortunately this is the first step to the mother of all wars.

As they hold the debt, we renege on it we peeve them off, they decide to externalise. Its wot those Brits did to us (just like Hitler did with the Jews) and thus instead of 250million peeved off people wanting your head (the CCP, the Russians and the Indians) they get angry at US instead. China/Russia/India have been spending immense amounts of money on their militaries.

The only power which can have a hope of defending against these countries is the USA... which is bankrupt.
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SirEdward
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 26 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy, we should start a (a Utopian) biz together somewhere down the line. Thumbs Up Very Happy
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"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who so survive.

Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune""
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Simply because the standard of living in the UK even quite frugal living can't be afforded by either the individual or the state. I'm not talking about how much YOU earn in a job btw.

Ask yourself this simply, why should I be paid more than a bloke in India or China?


As I am sure you know, standard of living and paid more do not necessarily go hand in hand. Possible to be paid far less but due to the cost of living still have a higher standard of living.

For example, Charlottes office had some people over from their Indian office. These were fairly junior IT staff. And they were surprised that the UK management didn't employ maids / cleaners for at home, when even the junior staff at the Indian office did.

All the best

Keith
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pa_broon74
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
If you really think about it what makes the UK so special the people here deserve their standard of living?

There is simply nothing special or unique about the UK anymore other than history and the current fairly decent infrastructure.


Maybe its our standard of living that makes the country special?

Although I agree broadly, there is a ticking time bomb in relation to other countries growing technology and their ability to seriously undercut us.

Thats really why we don't make anything any more, in a sense, we got our good standard of living from making stuff but it actually destroyed our manufacturing base because it became to expensive to operate.

Essentially, we're all doomed. Maybe in 100 years time there'll be British corner shops all over India and UK takeaways in China.

Who knows.

Wink
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el_oso
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
abolish countries/towns/continents and money. you want something you got to trade it
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Ed Case
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PostPosted: 19:00 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought that Utopia was in Stoke-on-Trent until somebody told me it was Etruria.
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Clanger
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
trevoriv wrote:
Itchy, you should write a book.

I would buy it.


He has... Thumbs Up
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tatters
Exxon Valdez



Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
Clanger wrote:
trevoriv wrote:
Itchy, you should write a book.

I would buy it.


He has... Thumbs Up


he,s got a few on amazon got some good reviews too

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Leon-Pang/e/B003LC7Z0M/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
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T0MMY
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote
the_godfather wrote:
abolish countries/towns/continents and money. you want something you got to trade it


It would be more convenient to use some sort of token that represents the value of goods or services so we don't have to find specific matches between traders every time Thinking
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