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Not signalling is not an offence?

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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 14:49 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Not signalling is not an offence? Reply with quote

Just had to look through the highway code for some other stuff.

Found that use of indicators in order to signal turns etc. is just a recommendation. The wording is should. In highway code speak this is advice, it's must to comply with any road traffic law. Should as in
Highway Code wrote:
...
179

Well before you turn right you should

* use your mirrors to make sure you know the position and movement of traffic behind you
* give a right-turn signal
* take up a position just left of the middle of the road or in the space marked for traffic turning right
* leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left, if possible...


So all those drivers I curse for not indicating, including the police, aren't actually doing anything wrong (as in a crime).

However, I suspect it may come under undue care and attention if you did it with a police car behind you.
Interesting that you fail the test if you don't use the indicators though Wink

Any thoughts?
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Gordon861
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

You only need to use them when doing so is of use to other road users to let them know what you intend to do.

A lot of the Highway Code isn't actually law and a lot of the law isn't in the Highway Code.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Depends if anyone gains from you using them. As I understand it the police are taught to only use indicators if someone is going to gain an understanding of intentions by them being used. If nobody is there then no point in using the.

Can understand the logic, but would tend to take the view that much of the time indicators are there as a final safety margin if the driver has managed to totally miss someone else's presence.

All the best

Keith
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Inkognito
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can get pretty upset sometimes if people don't indicate. Especially if you're sitting there waiting for someone to go straight so you can turn. Then they turn at the last minute making you look like a twat waiting for nothing Razz

I always indicate though. Just becomes second nature i guess. The only time i don't is when i'm sitting in a filter lane. Had a few people swear at me for not indicating. Why the fuck would i need to? I can ONLY go right here.. What was you expecting? A left turn in a right turn filter lane? You twat.

Razz
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The999Kid
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Depends if anyone gains from you using them. As I understand it the police are taught to only use indicators if someone is going to gain an understanding of intentions by them being used. If nobody is there then no point in using the.

Can understand the logic, but would tend to take the view that much of the time indicators are there as a final safety margin if the driver has managed to totally miss someone else's presence.

All the best

Keith


Not just the police, ambulance staff are taught not to signal unless completely necessary as it is used as part of the training into observations and forward planning before the blue light runs are done.

with that said... if im alone on the roads i wont bother signaling at all... waste of time i.e. tree falling in the woods analogy
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Kal
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PostPosted: 15:30 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

TwoSock wrote:
Can get pretty upset sometimes if people don't indicate. Especially if you're sitting there waiting for someone to go straight so you can turn. Then they turn at the last minute making you look like a twat waiting for nothing Razz

I always indicate though. Just becomes second nature i guess. The only time i don't is when i'm sitting in a filter lane. Had a few people swear at me for not indicating. Why the fuck would i need to? I can ONLY go right here.. What was you expecting? A left turn in a right turn filter lane? You twat.

Razz


Yep being in a filter lane is no different to the road naturally curving to the right or left. You are effectively taking the only direction open to you so indication is not required.

As for your thought about the driving test map, it's not so much to see if you can drive within what is legal but rather if you drive with 'best practise' Confused
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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that bugs me is when people indicate to go around a parked car. It's not like I'm thinking "Hey! Watch out for that parked car! Phew.. he's seen it." I can work out by myself that you're not going to drive into it, you know.

Worse still is when they indicate again to pull back in.. Rolling Eyes
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MinhDinh
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PostPosted: 15:45 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Hammers wrote:
One thing that bugs me is when people indicate to go around a parked car. It's not like I'm thinking "Hey! Watch out for that parked car! Phew.. he's seen it." I can work out by myself that you're not going to drive into it, you know.

Worse still is when they indicate again to pull back in.. Rolling Eyes


I actually prefer them to do this. More the better because I hate it when I get cut up when there are no indicators.
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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 15:48 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal wrote:
...it's not so much to see if you can drive within what is legal but rather if you drive with 'best practise' Confused

Fair comment, nice to know even the police and other emergency services don't follow best practice.

Come to think of it I get wound up by people doing stuff on the roads that they'd fail the test on, e.g. Doing 50mph in a NSL/60mph limit. On the test that's a fail for not making progress.

Fair comment too about not using indicators when no-one else is around. I remember that being mentioned on the advanced course. Trouble is it's been rare for me to be on a totally quiet road. Not even necessary to indicate when overtaking as by the time you've indicated and the car has noticed you're already past them. That was from the police on the course. Obviously good practice if other vehicles around to let them know your intentions.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Hammers wrote:
One thing that bugs me is when people indicate to go around a parked car. It's not like I'm thinking "Hey! Watch out for that parked car! Phew.. he's seen it." I can work out by myself that you're not going to drive into it, you know.


Yes, but if your road position looks like you are about to try and overtake then it is probably a good idea they do just in case.

All the best

Keith
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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Yes, but if your road position looks like you are about to try and overtake then it is probably a good idea they do just in case.

In that situation, that'd be fair enough, but I think the people who do it will do it anyway, and even if I'm just following in the car normally they'll still do it.

I think that indicators are overused, and that's (generally) a good example of it. Same as indicating when the road bears left or right, and they think they need to let me know that they're going to follow the road, whereas I'm actually thinking they're going to pull off somewhere.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Agree on indicating when the road goes left or right. That is just confusing.

I have mixed feelings on indicators being over used. While it is fine to say not to use them if nobody is around, I don't think anyone is perfect enough to always know if nobody is around. And if they happen not to notice someone then the indicator gives that person at least some chance of knowing what is happening.

All the best

Keith
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my Bikesafe many years ago the police rider actually pulled me up for excessive use on indicators. Sure, when there's no-one around I don't use them but that's a rare event in London! Shocked
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HD
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friends dad's WR250F doesnt actually have indicators.

Mine dont work, in need of a relay. When I get on the road if they aren't working I cant be assed with hand signals. Its slow enough anyway without taking my hands off the throttle.

Humph.

But yeah, as all bikes aren't fitted with them, and when other people aren't around I guess that is why it is a should not a must.
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Bloke
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feelings on the subject are perfectly illustrated in this short clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=ov4JvTiQWUU

Smile
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Clanger
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

TwoSock wrote:
Can get pretty upset sometimes if people don't indicate. Especially if you're sitting there waiting for someone to go straight so you can turn. Then they turn at the last minute making you look like a twit waiting for nothing.


I certainly don't trust all people who do indicate...I will happily sit and wait, especially if they are not slowing down...as quite often vehicles are still indicating from turning off elsewhere...

Sitting and waiting an extra few minutes is no skin off my nose anyway, better to be safe than sorry (in my opinion). Actually I find with my non-aggressive happy to wait stance means I have a less stressed drive/ride. And I still get to where I am going in plenty of time. Cool Thumbs Up
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JP7
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who have said that advanced drivers and emergency drivers only indicate if there is someone to tell are bang on.

The idea behind it is that you don't automatically signal. You check all around you to see where everyone else is and what they are doing, before deciding whether they would benefit from a signal. That way, you've seen and assessed every hazard nearby before you make a move.
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kawakid
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon861 wrote:
You only need to use them when doing so is of use to other road users to let them know what you intend to do.


Yeahh true, if your signalling and there's no other road users about, you are not doing your observations.

I see car drivers doing this all the time, signal then move. Even on empty roads on a night.

Who the f*** are you signalling to.
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Bloke
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

kawakid wrote:
Gordon861 wrote:
You only need to use them when doing so is of use to other road users to let them know what you intend to do.


Yeahh true, if your signalling and there's no other road users about, you are not doing your observations.

I see car drivers doing this all the time, signal then move. Even on empty roads on a night.

Who the f*** are you signalling to.


Er... You? As if you're on the road and can see them surely they can see you?

I signal when necessary. i'd rather give a signal seen by noone then smidsy and neglect to signal.

Not necessarily always going to be 100% on obs and it only takes one mistake (kid on bmx no lights coming out of a side alley all of a sudden as you start turning for example). So I typically always signal in urban areas (not when overtaking parked cars grrr pet hate that) but if it's 4am and no one is near me on a dual carriage way or motorway I don't bother.
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

kawakid wrote:
Gordon861 wrote:
You only need to use them when doing so is of use to other road users to let them know what you intend to do.


Yeahh true, if your signalling and there's no other road users about, you are not doing your observations.

I see car drivers doing this all the time, signal then move. Even on empty roads on a night.

Who the f*** are you signalling to.


If you can see them the road is obviously not empty. I guess they are signaling to you.
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JP7
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloke wrote:

I signal when necessary. i'd rather give a signal seen by noone then smidsy and neglect to signal.

Not necessarily always going to be 100% on obs and it only takes one mistake (kid on bmx no lights coming out of a side alley all of a sudden as you start turning for example). So I typically always signal in urban areas (not when overtaking parked cars grrr pet hate that) but if it's 4am and no one is near me on a dual carriage way or motorway I don't bother.

I see where you're coming from, Bloke, but does that create a risk of indicating automatically and not always checking properly for hazards first? That's the whole reason emergency services, RoSPA and IAM advocate only indicating when you have to. Not a poke, just a question to you...
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 21:55 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought it was illegal not to indicate, as is reversing into a main road.

Indeed, in America, I believe you get a fine if you are caught. Mind you, Because of their crossroad system, indication is very much needed.
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Bloke
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

JP7 wrote:

I see where you're coming from, Bloke, but does that create a risk of indicating automatically and not always checking properly for hazards first? That's the whole reason emergency services, RoSPA and IAM advocate only indicating when you have to. Not a poke, just a question to you...


Yeah I agree totally. On both my driving and riding lessons I was taught to only indicate if another person was around, but it's one of those i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it things.

Counter argument: signalling always, becomes a learned behaviour/second nature allowing you to concentrate more on your observations. Wink Smile
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JP7
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloke wrote:


Yeah I agree totally. On both my driving and riding lessons I was taught to only indicate if another person was around, but it's one of those i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it things.

Counter argument: signalling always, becomes a learned behaviour/second nature allowing you to concentrate more on your observations. Wink Smile

Haha, I like your style. This will remain one of life's unanswered questions!
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The999Kid
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 27 Oct 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

JP7 wrote:
Bloke wrote:


Yeah I agree totally. On both my driving and riding lessons I was taught to only indicate if another person was around, but it's one of those i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it things.

Counter argument: signalling always, becomes a learned behaviour/second nature allowing you to concentrate more on your observations. Wink Smile

Haha, I like your style. This will remain one of life's unanswered questions!


I see your counter argument, and raise you this:

Signaling always, cultivates a lazy and semi conscious attitude when on the road, as the driver/rider becomes complacent in their abilities to change the radio/chat to the wife knowing that their MSMPSL routine would be uncompromised.

Also, if everything the driver/rider does is governed by that MSMPSL routine, the younger generation of motorists and their inherently lower IQ/ability to think for themselves will become entrapped in their algorithms for motoring and will become unable to think dynamically...

again... just a point Thumbs Up
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