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PC dismissed for raping woman in police locker room

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Silver
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: PC dismissed for raping woman in police locker room Reply with quote

Yes, it's another Police thread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11787634

Some selective quotes from the above linked article (in case you can't be arsed to read it):

BBC wrote:
The woman, in her early 20s, had drunk several glasses of wine at a party at a hotel in central London and went outside when she began to feel unwell.
No memory

CCTV showed the police officer, who had been drinking in a nearby pub, starting to talk to the woman.

He then led her away from her party to nearby St Pancras train station where he was due to sleep in a locker room before starting work early the next day.

In interview he said during the night they had consensual sex.


Okay.

BBC wrote:
A CPS spokesman said there was insufficient evidence to prosecute as it had to prove the offence had happened beyond all reasonable doubt. But the Met's disciplinary hearing findings, based on the information gathered by the IPCC inquiry, are based on the balance of all probabilities, and found the police officer had non-consensual sex with the woman.

Commander Mark Simmons said: "This officer acted in an intolerable way and it is only right that once such dreadful behaviour was found proven the man was dismissed."


But it wasn't proven, or else he'd have been charged with rape - so how come it's 'proven' enough to sack him? Eh?
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be guilty as an offence it has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt, which it wasn't. However, it was clearly not clear cut enough to satisfy the police disciplinary body which is not looking at the law but his conduct.
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's okay for police sergeant Mark Andrews to throw a (possibly drunk) woman around in a police cell causing her injuries but it's not okay for an off duty policeman to shag a pissed woman who was possibly gagging for it but later felt guilty for being a drunken slag Confused
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Last edited by Raffles on 20:36 - 18 Nov 2010; edited 1 time in total
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Silver
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PostPosted: 20:36 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was my point. I imagine he's allowed to have (consensual) sex on his own time. On the other hand, if it was 'proved' he raped her then he would have been charged and yet the force are convinced enough to sack him. There's either proof or there isn't (or the force are happy enough to work on the law of probabilities rather than concrete evidence).
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colin1
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

The level of proof needed for a criminal prosecution is different from that needed for a civil prosecution, and thats also different from the level of proof needed to sack someone.

You can never prove something 100%, so it does come down to what level of proof is acceptable. They dont like having scientists on juries, as scientists aim for something like 95% certain whereas laymen are happy to convict on 70%.

That's as it should be. There should be a higher level of proof needed to deprive a man of his liberty than to get him fired. It's a more serious thing.

I'm now hoping Mark Andrews will be fired on the basis that an officer cleared of a criminal offense can still be fired. I think a lot is going to come down to individuals in power and their view of the situation, which may reflect the realiy of the situation, or it might reflect their predjudices, or political needs.
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver wrote:
That was my point. I imagine he's allowed to have (consensual) sex on his own time. On the other hand, if it was 'proved' he raped her then he would have been charged and yet the force are convinced enough to sack him. There's either proof or there isn't (or the force are happy enough to work on the law of probabilities rather than concrete evidence).


We don't know how the court case went so lets just pretend. Maybe it's established via both the statements of the copper and the woman that they both knew she was drunk and unable to to really give a clear and obvious consent but she also didn't refuse sex or fight him off in any way. Now to the court that may just mean drunk sex, there was no struggle and she can't really complain so he's not guilty. To the police disciplinary board they see a man who showed poor judgment and quite probably took advantage of the woman in a situation, particularly given his job, do they want a copper with such poor judgement, no, so they sack him.
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Silver
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

colin1 wrote:
There should be a higher level of proof needed to deprive a man of his liberty than to get him fired. It's a more serious thing.


That depends on whether you think there are degrees of guilt. You could argue that guilt is black and white, although I've already said that the police probably worked on probability.

Phoenix wrote:
We don't know how the court case went so lets just pretend.... To the police disciplinary board they see a man who showed poor judgment and quite probably took advantage of the woman in a situation, particularly given his job, do they want a copper with such poor judgement, no, so they sack him.


There wasn't a court case, which makes you think the level of evidence is not great. Being sack for poor judgement would be one thing, but the Commander said "it is only right that once such dreadful behaviour was found proven the man was dismissed", implying absolute guilt.
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, I thought there was a court case and he was found not guilty, still it was the CPS who decided there was insufficient evidence, not the police, they may have thought there was enough to prove him guilty. The statement about such dreadful behaviour is ambiguous though and again may just mean what the incident has shown about his character rather than the act of rape, there's not enough detail to know exactly what they're sacking him for or what the evidence was.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 21:20 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver wrote:


That depends on whether you think there are degrees of guilt. You could argue that guilt is black and white, although I've already said that the police probably worked on probability.


I wasnt talking about degrees of guilt although that would be worth thinking about. Phoenix covered it quite well I thought.

I was talking about degree to which you can be sure an event happened a particular way.

You might fire someone on suspicion of stealing even if you cant prove it, simply because you don't want to employ someone who might have stolen something. You may not be sure enough to think they should be imprisoned for the offence, as you cant be sure 100% that they did it.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was a police-man ! , his conduct should be beyond reproach!.

He is/was supposed to be an example to us all : a paragon of good virtue and that clearly was/is not the case.

taking advantage of a situation ie shagging a drunk bird may not be illegal but it is not ethical?

In my trade, I bet there were times when I could of shagged a drunk bird every week-end,but I did`nt!
Why? cos it`s just not right even if they said yes, the`re drunk for crying out loud.

He is a sexual preditor and as such, maybe he is`nt suitable to be a policeman
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Silver
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired, I'm just questioning how the police can fire him because of guilt but they see no point in attempting a prosecution. To me that suggests that the evidence is poor and the police have acted on a 'best guess at what happened' when considering his employment. Nowhere does it say he was fired for a lesser improper conduct offence, for example, the insinuation is that he raped her.

colin1 wrote:
You might fire someone on suspicion of stealing even if you cant prove it, simply because you don't want to employ someone who might have stolen something. You may not be sure enough to think they should be imprisoned for the offence, as you cant be sure 100% that they did it.


I reckon you'd be on dodgy grounds, firing someone under the suspicion of theft only.

pepperami wrote:
He was a police-man ! , his conduct should be beyond reproach!.

He is/was supposed to be an example to us all : a paragon of good virtue and that clearly was/is not the case.

taking advantage of a situation ie shagging a drunk bird may not be illegal but it is not ethical?

In my trade, I bet there were times when I could of shagged a drunk bird every week-end,but I did`nt!
Why? cos it`s just not right even if they said yes, the`re drunk for crying out loud.

He is a sexual preditor and as such, maybe he is`nt suitable to be a policeman


I assume you haven't actually read the article. He wasn't working, he was off duty. In fact, he was in a pub too. Should he never shag anyone? If that makes him a sexual predator then so are 90% of men (assuming it was consensual, of course).
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 22:04 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperami wrote:
He was a police-man ! , his conduct should be beyond reproach!.

He is/was supposed to be an example to us all : a paragon of good virtue and that clearly was/is not the case.

taking advantage of a situation ie shagging a drunk bird may not be illegal but it is not ethical?
In my trade, I bet there were times when I could of shagged a drunk bird every week-end,but I did`nt!
Why? cos it`s just not right even if they said yes, the`re drunk for crying out loud.
He is a sexual preditor and as such, maybe he is`nt suitable to be a policeman



Even if he is off duty, he should have a good and decent sense of ethics.
I dont know about you, but when I have sex with a woman, I want it to be because she wants me to have sex with her, not becuase she is in a confused/befuddled state and unable to think straight because she has had to much to drink??
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Silver
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PostPosted: 22:14 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperami wrote:
Even if he is off duty, he should have a good and decent sense of ethics.
I dont know about you, but when I have sex with a woman, I want it to be because she wants me to have sex with her, not becuase she is in a confused/befuddled state and unable to think straight because she has had to much to drink??


Agreed, but... the article says she had "several glasses of wine", no mention that she was confused, befuddled or drunk (although she could have been all three).

Also, since nothing was proven (and we don't know more facts, except there was not enough evidence to go to court), this could have been the real course of events...

Raffles wrote:
it's not okay for an off duty policeman to shag a pissed woman who was possibly gagging for it but later felt guilty for being a drunken slag Confused
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing was proven and no one was prosecuted, but I see a rotter and possibly the force would be better off without him??imho.

Maybe if he had of been a little more careful of who he put his dick into, this case would never of come to light?
maybe the lesson for us all is to stay away from drunk birds Shocked
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Silver
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 18 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends how drunk! Wink
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lihp
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PostPosted: 01:38 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had somebody sacked for theft from our place in work.

Now, there was enough evidence that it was very PROBABLE that she stole, but not enough evidence to prosecute, and prove that she DEFINATELY Stole.

If it was probable that he raped her, he'd be sacked, but that doesn't mean there's enough to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

In the article, it says that she said to a friend that she doesn't remember much of the night after the party, but was obviously conscious between the party and the station, so can't say for certain she didn't give consent.
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperami wrote:
maybe the lesson for us all is to stay away from drunk birds Shocked

If it wasn't for drunk birds then I would probably still be a virgin Laughing
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of interest if the woman said she did not give consent and the guy said she did and there was no cctv or anything else interfering, he couldn't get prosecuted for it could he.

It would just be her word against his. Does it make any difference that he is a cop if it went to court etc?
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colin1
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PostPosted: 20:09 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver wrote:

I reckon you'd be on dodgy grounds, firing someone under the suspicion of theft only.


People get fired for their face not fitting, so suspicion of theft would mean you were straight out of a lot of places.

People can officially be let go for all sorts of reasons other than the real reason.

If you hire their replacement before you make them redundant, you can say the replacement is doing a slightly different job.

Or you transfer the firee to another department, and then make that role redundant.

HR folk have got lots of tricks to do what they want.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilDawson8270 wrote:
We had somebody sacked for theft from our place in work.

Now, there was enough evidence that it was very PROBABLE that she stole, but not enough evidence to prosecute, and prove that she DEFINATELY Stole.


There ya go, exactly what I'm talking about.
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bootsbiker
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raffles wrote:
pepperami wrote:
maybe the lesson for us all is to stay away from drunk birds Shocked

If it wasn't for drunk birds then I would probably still be a virgin Laughing


that makes 2 of use
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 20:36 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next time I`m dealing with a drunk bird, i`ll tell her I know a couple of virgins that could do with a bit of help Laughing Thumbs Up
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The Original Muzza
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

bootsbiker wrote:
Raffles wrote:

If it wasn't for drunk birds then I would probably still be a virgin Laughing


that makes 2 of use


2 cunts then. Unless you were just as, if not more drunk.
I despise men who ply women with drinks to get them into bed or even prey on an easy target who is already drunk, and have myself turned down a few female acquaintances who have tried it on. If they actually want it they will ask again when less inebriated.
I don't care if you think it is perfectly fine or that booze "brings out their true feelings". I wouldn't call it rape though, it's in an entirely different category altogether, depraved though it may be. Thumbs Down
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Silver
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 20 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

colin1 wrote:
Silver wrote:

I reckon you'd be on dodgy grounds, firing someone under the suspicion of theft only.


People get fired for their face not fitting, so suspicion of theft would mean you were straight out of a lot of places.

People can officially be let go for all sorts of reasons other than the real reason.

If you hire their replacement before you make them redundant, you can say the replacement is doing a slightly different job.

Or you transfer the firee to another department, and then make that role redundant.

HR folk have got lots of tricks to do what they want.


Yes, yes, yes, I'm well aware of what can happen, however, you're not talking about some two bit company with a turnover of £6.84 you're talking about the police force and a high profile, public case.
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