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does a car heater increase fuel consumption?

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steppen22
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PostPosted: 08:45 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: does a car heater increase fuel consumption? Reply with quote

Same question for radios etc.

Daft, I'm sure it is. But I've only just started using my car - clarificatio would be nice.
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Cigaro
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PostPosted: 08:49 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presumably you mean the inbuilt heater.

The heater itself won't - in fact, if anything, running it is more efficient - your engine generates waste heat; all you're doing is using it to warm the interior of the car.

However, the blower fan does take a small amount of electricity.

Running any electrical device will increase the load on your alternator therefore causing more fuel to be burnt.

Cheers.
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0ddball
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PostPosted: 08:50 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything that puts extra load on the alternator, hence the engine increases fuel consumption. You probably won't notice that much difference though.
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Syris the Indomitable
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you tell when an auto mechanic just had sex?
One of his fingers is clean!
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Paxovasa
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

The radio is ok to use.

Have you been watching top gear? the episode that JC goes from London to Edingburgh and back on one tank full of diesel?
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craigT19
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PostPosted: 09:19 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paxovasa wrote:
The radio is ok to use.

Have you been watching top gear? the episode that JC goes from London to Edingburgh and back on one tank full of diesel?



diesels the answer! my 1.8 focus tdci will sit at 65mpg on the motorway at around 75mph in top... flick the air con on and the mpg drops to only 63.5 awsomness
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will make minimal difference.

You would save more fuel by not using the brakes unless you have to.
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G
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mythbusters did a thing about the aircon which is well known to decrease fuel economy. Turns out that if the alternative is opening the windows, it's only more fuel efficient up to a certain speed to do that - above that the extra drag makes it more fuel efficient to use air con.

I really wouldn't worry about the heater.
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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 10:45 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheBassJunky wrote:
...Running any electrical device will increase the load on your alternator therefore causing more fuel to be burnt...

I'm being thick here in that I don't understand that. I'm sure I've been told but I can't recall the answer. Can anyone explain?

I'm starting from this viewpoint:
The engine runs at a set amount of revs. It uses fuel to turn at those revs. The engine revs generate electricity via the alternator. Being induction related these two aren't physically connected. So drawing more current doesn't magically increase the engine revs to burn more fuel. So how does it use more fuel*

Confused


*I know it does, I just want to be sure how and why
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yahoo Answers wrote:
The problem here relates to electromagnetic phenomena. Assume that the coil is the rotor. When the rotor turns, it cuts through the magnetic field generated by the stator, producing a current running through the rotor and the electrical device. The current in turn causes the rotor to produce a magnetic field that contrasts that of the stator, inhibiting rotation. The more intensive the current, the larger the inhibition. When the load increases, the current also increases, making it harder to turn the alternator. This phenomenon is consistent with the law of energy conservation: you have to work more to produce more electricity.


But I'm sure Teflon Mike will be along shortly with a small novel to explain in more detail Smile
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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 11:12 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
Yahoo Answers wrote:
<stuff about there being a resistance so engine needs to do more work>


But I'm sure Teflon Mike will be along shortly with a small novel to explain in more detail Smile

...but I still don't understand as the revs from the engine is controlled by the throttle isn't it.

If I turn on every bit of electrical kit thus increasing the load the engine doesn't increase in revs / output in order to compensate for this.

Sorry if being stupid it's just a really don't see it. I understand the extra load needed to generate more current I just don't get how that burns more fuel. To increase the load you need to increase the revs, you only burn more fuel if you increase the revs, but there is no direct link from the alternator to the throttle.

Confused Brick Wall Thinking
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you set the idle at (say) 2000rpm so you're not affecting it with the throttle, the revs will drop when you turn on all the electrics. Same as using a genny, the revs will drop when you turn the load on.
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pits
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuel economy? Heater? Eh? Oh right, yeah, those are the things that were designed into my Defender but don't seem to work right well.
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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 11:45 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:
...the revs will drop when you turn on all the electrics...

Ah, Penny Coin dropped.
The altenator kills the engine, like applying a brake to it, you compensate with more revs.
Think I got it now Doh!
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G
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it like driving up hill - you need more throttle to keep the same speed (and thus revs). Basically the engine needs more 'bang' to overcome the forces acting against it.
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, normally I wouldn't notice something like that in the summer, I have the vents open in the winter to allow the warm air in from the engine however the blower is quite distracting.

I have noticed that my fuel is down more than it would be in the summer according to the trip metre. But this is no doubt connected to the fact that you gotta have alot more choke in the winter and for longer Wink
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 12:07 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHR15 wrote:
physically hear


Is that like dividing by zero?


Also, bikes ftw, free air con whilst moving. Admittedly you pay in the lack of aerodyanmics. Compared to a car, bikes are like bricks going through the air whereas cars are all slippery.


Last edited by The Artist on 12:09 - 19 Nov 2010; edited 1 time in total
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silky666
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heater = nothign you will notice.
AirCon = can be significant at low speeds and traffic (where you are likely to use it most)

Tyre pressures and driving efficiently makes a huge difference.

The big petrol blockades in 2000 (?) .... Mrs.Silky gave birth and the hospital was 40 mins up the M40.
So I had one tank of petrol (luckily) to last me a week ish.
I made sure the tyres were at right pressures and drove like Miss.Daisy.
Trying to roll to a stop if possible and no hard acceleration .. and 60mph tops.

That tank lasted me AGES Smile.... at least 3x as many miles (it felt like)
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Paxovasa
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

silky666 wrote:
That tank lasted me AGES Smile.... at least 3x as many miles (it felt like)


I think it is like when the medical expersts say,you will live longer if you stop smoking, stop drinking, and live a clean heathly life. (it just seems that you live longer) Wink
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

The heaters will only increase fuel efficiency although you will never notice it, the heaters run off an internal radiator behind the dashboard which has engine coolant circulating through it. It simply dissipates heat from the engine like the normal radiator when the valve is opened (the heating is turned up), this will cool down the engine by a minute fraction and increase efficiency. The electricity required by the blowers on max probably negates any efficiency gain from the extra cooling.

The biggest difference is definately driving style, braking makes a big difference but throttle use moreso, if you put your foot down and wait for the revs to climb when you drive you will use a lot more fuel than if you gradually increase throttle as the car speeds up, this is how I get crazy mpg figures out of bikes, i'm never anywhere near full throttle as there's just no need on a 140hp bike and riding like that can give you an extra 10-15mpg over a tank. The same principle works in cars but to a lesser extent as you generally need much more throttle than on a bike to get the thing moving at all.

Using cruise control can help and hinder sometimes, over a long flat distances it'll increase economy but if you've got hills it can reduce it as it will increase throttle in a wasteful way simply to maintain your cruise speed up hills. If you drive manually you can just keep a neutral throttle and let your momentum take you up the hill but dip some speed and regain it on the way down which saves fuel.
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:

...but I still don't understand as the revs from the engine is controlled by the throttle isn't it.



Under load you need more throttle to maintain those revs. Go up a hill and your revs will drop until you put your foot down.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Studies have been done calculating the extra fuel used by Europe's cars if daytime lights were compulsory - can't be arsed to look it up but it's surprisingly large amount, after all if that lighting came from petrol generators then obviously lots of fuel gets used.
You can't get something for nothing.

An example of the extra work the engine does with heavier loading on the alternator can sometimes be noticed if you use jump leads.
The donor vehicle engine note will become more laboured the moment the leads are connected to the weak battery.

But running the fan for the heater is pretty insignificant, 50watts or so?
Maybe more on full blast.
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Cigaro
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 19 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to using more electricity = burning more fuel, try this:

Let your car engine idle and then turn on all the electrical loads in the car. Heated screen, blowers, lights, the lot.

What will happen is the engine will momentarily drop in revs before the ECU injects more fuel to compensate. Therefore you are burning more fuel to keep the car idling.

You'll also use more throttle to get the same power when driving.
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P.
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 20 Nov 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

silky666 wrote:
Tyre pressures and driving efficiently makes a huge difference.


Agree with this, If i set my tyres to 36psi and drive with the throttle barely pushed down, I get a fair distance more in the Supra than if I full throttle it and hit the power.

On a standard tank I get 140 miles, if I drive like a granny I get around 190 to a tank.

Ive got a high drain on the electricity, large 3000w amp and sub, ps2 and a tv. I use the aircon every now and then, mainly in summer... I dont really notice too much change in fuel consumption.

On my hire car, the estimated remaining miles did go down when I turned on the radio and aircon, it also senses the windows were down and warns you about it... too much info!
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