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Swifte
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Ol
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 Posted: 13:39 - 02 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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Doesn't make any difference to me, as long as i'm hanging off the bike my knee actually touching the deck makes bugger all difference to how well i take a corner.
I imagine there will be some hardcode types that'll say it's important so they know how far over the bikes leaning etc, but for me, make no difference so i dont bother trying.
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 15:17 - 02 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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I understand teh science behind it, and on the track weight shift for that extra 'bit' of corner capability, plys lean judging, makes some sense.
But very little on the road.
OTR I'm an exponent of counter-leaning.
Modern bikes, with modern tyres and modern suspension can go over far more than bikes of yore, we dont have to 'hang-off' for fear of running out of rubber.
Myth of the 'chicken-strip' also shows how you can get a bike over a long way, in slow corners (typically roundabouts), but not actually load it very much.
Its only when tyre has a feathered chicken strip, the rubber showing little feather marks where its actually scrubbing from not only being leaned over, but actually loaded whilst there, and 'scrubbing' becouse of the difference in radius of the tyre at the extremities to the centre, that you know you have a bike that's being ridden hard.
And on a heavy bike, chucking your arse from one side to the other to 'hang off' is a destabilising action, and one that takes time.
For a long fast sweeping bend, you can set the bike up, adjusting weight before hand, lining it up, then tipping in, but when the road becomes tighter, you dont have that luxuary, and getting from one side of teh bike to the other, in a hurry, in a combination of bends, it gets a bit frantic, and the violence of the movements, and suddeness of weight shifts can be as unhelpful as getting the weight in a better place for each corner.
There, counter-leaning can work a lot better.
Stay upright, use counter steer to make the bike go down beneath you to the desired angle of lean.
You need to lean it further for the same corner speed, becouse you dont have the advantage of your weight being on the inside, but, we know the bike can lean that far and still grip, so it doesn't matter. Different means to the same end.
But, as the next bend in the complex comes along, and you need to get the bike over the other way, and pointing in a different direction, you now dont have to chuck yourself from one side of the bike to the other.
You pick it up with counter steer; which will make it tip a lot quicker than you can wrestle it, and your only shifting the weight of the bike, not your weight and then the bikes, so it will come up, and go back down the other way, and awful lot faster, and with a lot less effort and a lot less violence, so it all stays a lot more stable.
Tackling a tight twisty country lane, the technique is brilliant, and sat almost bolt upright, you can carry a heck of a lot of corner speed through the bends, makeing the bike do the work beneath you, without any of the drama of chucking yourself from side to side, and never a patella near the pavement!
And when you park up, your chicken strips are anorexic and un-plucked.
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| MinhDinh |
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MinhDinh
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| Posted: 15:27 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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I can't get close to a kneee down on the B1H at all. I haven't tried properly because I don't want to bin it. The RS wasn't properly knee downed on it either, however, I got close. However on this bike, I am just a lil scared.
I only live 1 mile from work so I don't have many turns and corners to attempt it which doesn't help me gain confidence.
I really do feel like a pussy 
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| colin1 |
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colin1
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Posted: 16:27 - 02 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Modern bikes, with modern tyres and modern suspension can go over far more than bikes of yore, we dont have to 'hang-off' for fear of running out of rubber. |
Hanging off is not about running out of rubber. The more upright the bike is, the better the suspension works. This is because the swing arm goes up and down if the bike is vertical. The swingarm does not go up and down if the bike is horizontal.
A friend of mine who also didnt believe in hanging off, went too fast into a corner, cranked the bike over, hit a catseye making the back step out, the foot peg caught the road, he then straightened up straight into a tree.
All could have been avoided if he had hung off, as if you hang off, you can go round a corner faster with the same angle of lean. This is because you are moving the centre of gravity of you and the bike, towards the centre of the turn, so there is more force pushing outwards giving the centripetal force to make the bike turn.
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lihp
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| Old Git Racing |
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Old Git Racing
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| Posted: 16:52 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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Racing - My TZ will ride off the edge of the tyres before grounding so knee down is a guide, gives a bit of stability right on the edge, I've never saved a front ender with the knee, been down every time.
Road - Totally unnecessary, when the brake pedal on the Dorso goes down its the limit but what a hoot! get the knee down for the fun of it, thats all it is on the road, fun 
OGR
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 16:59 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| colin1 wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Modern bikes, with modern tyres and modern suspension can go over far more than bikes of yore, we dont have to 'hang-off' for fear of running out of rubber. |
Hanging off is not about running out of rubber. The more upright the bike is, the better the suspension works. This is because the swing arm goes up and down if the bike is vertical. The swingarm does not go up and down if the bike is horizontal.
A friend of mine who also didnt believe in hanging off, went too fast into a corner, cranked the bike over, hit a catseye making the back step out, the foot peg caught the road, he then straightened up straight into a tree.
All could have been avoided if he had hung off, as if you hang off, you can go round a corner faster with the same angle of lean. This is because you are moving the centre of gravity of you and the bike, towards the centre of the turn, so there is more force pushing outwards giving the centripetal force to make the bike turn. |
Well, first, I dont 'not' believe in hanging off. I fully understand the technique, and know where its helpful. Its another useful tool in the armoury of motorcycle control, but ots only one. There are other techniques, and in cirtain circumstances they can be a lot more helpful.
The anecdote about your mate hitting a tree, is a bad one. Prime cause of crashing was in the beginning. He went too fast into the corner. Hanging off, may or may not have helped him. There's too many vairiables in teh question, and too many unknowns to try and suggest that hanging off is a good thing.
As for suspension travel, and suspension working better at small angles of lean and bump incidence; on a simplistic level, its quite correct, and makes some sense. But again, its a far more complicated situation, and without getting into all the contradictions and convolutions of it, lets just turn that on its head.
If the bike will lean to 50degrees, and the suspension work well enough at that angle, does it matter whether you are hanging off it at that angle or counter leaning above it?
By your reckoning, you keep the bike more upright so that during a corner, suspension works better. But, you also hang off so you can go faster for the same lean angle.
So, at some point, you'll get to the same lean angle, hanging off, as I would, counter-leaning, only you'll be going a lot faster, when the suspension is not working so well....... and a mid corner bump will 'unsettle' the bike or make the back end step out.
Query: which scenario would you rather be in; counter-leaning, the bike over-leaned underneath you, mobile and easy to move around, changing angle of lean or line to suit, and able to pull it back and use less lean and more steering, to go round the corner, or, hung off, the bike 'committed' to a line, and needing a lot more time consuming effort to 'correct' or adjust, when something 'unsettles' the bike?
Yes, hanging off can work, but its only one technique, and it's not a universal solution to all corners, on all bikes.
Counter-Leaning, is only ONE technique, and is, also, not a panacia for cornering control, but it is a technique that on the road, particularly, has a lot of advantages over hanging off in many situations.
Particularly tight twisty roads, where it allows you a lot more 'response', lets you chuck the bike about faster, and respond to changes in road surface, grip, camber, line or other traffic. Also often gives you a better site line, and all for the sake of exploiting at the available lean at 'real-world' speeed, attainable on a twisty NSL road, on a bike that can probably hold those same angles of lean at speeds twice or three times that, and where hanging off, is simply compromising your actual control, to concerve cabability that is basically not in need of concervation!
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CarlosCBR
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Blue_SV650S
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| Posted: 17:18 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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If you can't get your knee down then you have failed at life! 
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Or so I thought when I was 17 and trying to do so on a CB100N with a welding glove taped to my kneed as a kneeslider!!! 
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lihp
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| Posted: 18:05 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | hanging off, is simply compromising your actual control, to concerve cabability that is basically not in need of concervation! |
I didn't see any explanation as to why hanging off compromises control? In fact during turns on a sports bike, there is more control available due to seat, and tank designs to support your weight with knee and forearms etc, allowing you to keep a light grip on the bars to avoid mild head shake turning into a major tank slapper.
Quite the contrary in my opinion, suspension works best up and down, it doesn't work sideways, so at the same speed of approx 60mph (obviously the slower the less the effect), hanging off is safer than sitting bolt up right, less lean angle means that the guy hanging off has more spare tread left, there is more suspension movement available with the bike more upright meaning that if your cats eye scenario did happen, bolt upright with a larger lean angle would have the bigger unsettling effect.
Regardless of which technique is used, adjusting your line mid corner, is poor obs, or you're running into corners too fast. You should still be setting the line/trajectory and allow the bike to do the work.
Switching sides on the bike should only be done before the turn in point, if it's done at the same time as turning then it can as you say unsettle the bike. This can still be minimised in twisty's or Chicane style bends, by shifting your body over with your knees and legs, not using your arms to pull you over, which causes the bike to wobble. Simply watch the SBK and MotoGP riders switch sides on Chicane's there's absolutely zero wiggle on the bike, obviously this is an extreme example as these are masters of sports bike control, but do demonstrate the point perfectly.
To lean in the opposite direction from the bike, is the opposite of what the bikes suspension naturally wants and you are forcing it out of a balanced state, thus reducing available grip levels.
Though I do agree that the grip and lean angles attainable on modern bikes are far higher than what is usable on a road, however, there is no reason not to shift your weight to improve your safety manuals, or even at the least move with the bike to allow it to remain properly balanced, than forcing it to do more work than it needs to.
I would personally prefer to hang off and weight the bike correctly and have bigger "chicken strips" than run my tyres to the edges on a road. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 18:33 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| PhilDawson8270 wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: | hanging off, is simply compromising your actual control, to concerve cabability that is basically not in need of concervation! |
I didn't see any explanation as to why hanging off compromises control? |
Becouse your snipping out of context!
Counter-leaning deliberately 'de-stabilises' the bike... you're not sat bolt upright ON the bike, you've shoved the bike down underneath you, so in effect you are in a precariousely balenced possition over the top, in order to utilise that 'instability' to gain response, and hence finer control.
Cats-eye scenario or similar, yes you may be slightly more inclined for something like that to make the bike wiggle or slide, but TBH if the bike was going to mis-behave on an irregularity like that, the difference in lean angle between hanging off or counter-leaning is pretty negligible, and you can pretty much presume that it'll happen whichever style is adopted.
But when something like that does happen, the more 'precariouse' and de-stabilised riding possition of counter leaning, gives you greater leverage and faster response to ract and pull it back, where the more 'commited' hanging off style, puts you in a less favourable possition to effect corrective action, or do so as quickly.
But its all circumstance dependent, on the bike, the conditions, the rider and thier ability, reflexes etc.
And counter-leaning does tend to work better on more conventional road-bikes to modern sportsbikes.
Conventional road-bikes are inherently more 'stable' through geometry and wheel-base, than sportsbikes whose geometry is much more 'nervouse'.
On a street-bike then, de-stabilising it by counter-leaning, is a good way to make the bike react faster and steer more quickly than it otherwise would, while on a sportsbike, its more nervouse geometry compensates for the more 'committed' riding possition of hanging off, and allows faster changes of attitude, than it would on a more concervative machine.
But I still hold to the suspension thing. Yes suspension works better at smaller angles of lean, but if a suspension system is capable enough to absorb bump energy cranked over to 45 degrees or more at 150mph, then it should be more than able to absorb that same bump cranked over to 45 degrees at 60!
So what are you gaining by way of suspension complience, and hence stability, holding the bike at 35 degrees?
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evoboy
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| Posted: 19:57 - 02 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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To add to what i said before. Getting your knee down is just somthing that happens when your leaning off and over.
I often find i tuck my knee in a bit more when leaning so i can go over further.
6'5 ftw.
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- you'll note I didn't claim it was a front end slide. It was a two wheel slide, actually 
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