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| SnowTigeress |
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SnowTigeress
Brolly Dolly
Joined: 23 May 2010
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 Posted: 02:55 - 10 Dec 2010  Post subject: Beware the Unicorn of the 'Cheap' Learner-Legal! |
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Well, as an extremely experienced 'learner', having had half a dozen 125's over six years... and always told by my ex-fiance "You dont pay more than a few hundred quid for a 125 - your not going to keep it', I thought I'd offer the benefit of my experience following that advice! And offer my own! DONT follow it!
Its not that 'Cheap' Learner-Legals, like unicorns, dont exist, but more often than not, they are just horses with a whale tusk gaffer taped to thier forehead, and/or cursed if you catch one!
Every one wants a bargain, and the Newbie market is PRIME turf for cowboys, trying to sell you one!
There is an abundance of nieve, over enthusiastic, over-optimistic, inexperienced buyers out there, who, even with only a couple of hundred quid in thier pocket, often have more money than sense, clamouring to buy thier first bike.
The 'Cheap' Learner-Legal, is not the one you pay least money for. Its the bike that you pay 'sensible' money for. Does what you want, or at least can reasonably expect of it. Doesn't give you more hassle or expense in the process, and at the end of the day, you can sell on, so that the entire experience has not been too daunting, financialy, emmotionally, or physically painful.
Cheap bikes are out there, but for the 'typical' newbie, they are bikes in the £800 - £1200 region, where they are reasonably young, and haven't been abused and neglected by so many newbie owners, so so they still work reasonably well, and dont give too many troubles along the way.
These bikes dont wobble about beneath you, making your learning any harder than it should be. They go into gear, easily, and have a neutral indicator light that actually works, for example. They dont need much more than a little basic maintenece, the chain adjusted, and the oil changed from time to time, and can be sold on for most of what you paid for one, when you have done with it.
The 'Fixer-Upper' DOES exist, but are only 'cheap' if you know what's what to begin with, and are a LOT more clued up than the average Newbie, AND have the facilities to actually do the fixer-uppering! Unfortunately, when I stared out, I wasn't, and I didn't!
Honda CG125
https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/odds%20and%20sods/th_CG125.jpg?t=1291944859
So I bought a CG125! Every-one told me 'You cant go wrong with a CG, indestructable they are!' and like the nieve newbie I was, I believed them..... until it siezed up on me!
Trouble with CG's is that they are often the victim of thier own reputation, and peple believe that they are indestructable, so they dont do ANY maintenence, and thrash them everywhere.
I paid £400 for my CG and it It worked for about year, until it got stolen and ragged on the park, A week later it siezed up. A mechanic told me it needed a new engine, but we couldn't find one for the sort of money I could afford or thought 'reasonable' and eventually the bike was scrapped.
£400 is not cheap biking, if you have to throw it away!
Yamaha TZR125
https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/odds%20and%20sods/tzr125.jpg
My next bike was a real 'fixer upper', a TZR I was actually given, because I didn't have the CG any more.
Bikes like this turn up from time to time, given away for nothing or next to nothing, that have vexed thier newbie owner, trying to fix them. Some can be fixed reasonably cheaply and easily. IF you know what you are doing, and you know what, and where you can make ecconomies, and where you most certainly CANT.
Unfortunately, I didn't, and neither did my then fiance, who promiced he could 'sort it out'.
It didn't like slowing down! When you rolled off the throttle, it would start to slow down, THEN accelerate like crazy!
Anyway, it did that to me one day when I was on the way to the hospital for a check up. It was in the rain, and it started to snake and wobble all over the road, then I slipped out on diesel and nearly ended up in the back of a car as the lights had changed!
My next TZR promiced more, bought for £350, supposedly a good runner, needing no work. At least not until my fiance used it for a while, when its need of a fairly major engine rebuild became aparent, and knowing no better, I sold it 'Spares of Repairs' for just £100.
Honda NS125R
https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/odds%20and%20sods/NS125.jpg
My fiancée actually bought this bike for £300 a little while after I got the first TZR,So I rode it, which wasn't much better, but bought 'cheap' wasn't an easy fix, when you just cant get parts like the windscreen and fairing.
AJS Regal Raptor DD125E
https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/cruiser/100_0067.jpg
So, finally, I bought a Chinese chopper, for £400. An 05-plate, it was pretty new, and promiced to be reliable, and actually it was. Always started on the button, and for nearly two years, hardly gave any trouble. But it didn't suit me very well. I didn't really like the style, and the riding possition was terrible for me. I met Tef while I had this bike, and he started to actually teach me a few things about bikes..... like how to check a spark-plug or replace a drive chain! And he started adapting the controls on the cruiser so it fitted me better, and I could ride it more easily.
For £400, it was a good bike, but if I had known better, I wouldn't have bought it. It only did 55mph, didn't like going round corners, let alone test-cones, and it was almost impossible to sell, when I decided I wanted something different.
When that got stolen I used the insurance money to start the 'Pup-Project'.
Honda CB125TD-C
https://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/cb125/th_Picture001.jpg?t=1291945085
Buying a 'fixer-upper', Honda CB125 'Super-Dream' for £350. This seemed like a lot of money to me, for a bike that I couldn't ride, but it was complete and a runner, and Tef explained, this was not going to be a 'quick-fix' job done on the cheap, but a full on renovation to get me as near as possible an, as good as or better than brand-new motorcycle.
Meanwhile he bought a couple more 'fixer-uppers' as projects for him, and I'm currently riding one of them, 'The Corpral'.
Fixer uppers CAN work, but you REALLY have to know your stuff, for them to ACTUALLY be 'Cheap'. And you dont just need to be able to assess a bike, but also the seller.
Bike you are looking at, advertised as an MOT failure, "It keeps blowing bulbs" might be a simple case of a duff rectifier, and an owner frustracted becouse diagnosing it is beyond his competence.
Or it may be, that the seller knows that the bike wont pass a test, becouse the brakes are shot, the chains slacker than a tarts nicker elastic, the tyres are on the legal limit, and it will cost a HECK of a lot more than the bike would be worth fixed, to fix. BUT he also knows that selling it as a fixer-upper, he'll get a lot more interest from nieve and optimistic bargain hunters, and more money back on it.
But there are 'Honest' bikes out there. Tef bought a Black 125 Super-Dream in the summer, for just over £200, taxed and tested, but a non-runner. Owner had taken it to a garage, and been told that it had low compression, and needed a £500 engine rebuild. For a dealer, thats not unreasonable, but more than the bike was worth. Tef knew that pottering about, he could rebuild that engine, and do so for under £200, giving him a £5-£600 bike for around £400.
The Corporal, needed a lot more work. It also had a dead engine, but Tef had one out of another bike to go in it, and its had pretty much a ground up renovation, having been in worse state when he started working on it than he'd anticipated. In cash money, he's probably spent around £500 on it so far... as well as many many days twiddling spanners on it, if he sold it, he might just get his money back on it.
And Tef's a chap that knows his bikes, has the know how to fix them, the time and all the tools. He was 'cought out' on the first bike we bought to do as my project, and hasn't 'won' anything on the Corporal. It stands as an example of how much of a lottery 'fixer-uppers' are. When everything is in your favour, you can still loose, more often, your lucky to break even, and JUST occassionally, you might drop on a winner.
Which should offer caution to the complete newbie, whose never seen the inside of a carburettor, let alone a crank-shaft, with the idea that, armed with a Haynes manual and a set of spanners from the pound-shop, they can turn a £200 heap into a concourse show-bike, for little more than a bit of effort and the price of an MOT, MIGHT just be a TAD optimistic.
As the 'Pup=Project' and watching Tef build 'The Corporal' has shown, bikes CAN be fixed up, but its far from quick and easy, even for a practiced mechanic like Tef, while problems that crop up cant always be fixed cheaply, and any 'ambition' over just getting the bike through an MOT can quickly see costs spiral enormousely!
Its not that it cant be done, but, its far from easy, and often no more ecconomical than buying a better bike to begin with, as I learned the hard way.... time, and time, and time, again!
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Real bikers build their own Renovated and Riding a 1986 Honda CB125TD-C called the Pup. Full Licence 13/09/2012, 1994 Moto Guzzi 750 Strada
Can-Do Girl that does spanners TOO!
TheSmiler: binning it is better than going around a roundabout the wrong way
Last edited by SnowTigeress on 18:38 - 10 Dec 2010; edited 6 times in total |
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| Relentless |
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Relentless
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Posted: 03:05 - 10 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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Do you and Tef .. EVER ,, sit down in silence and say nothing for more than 5 mins ...   
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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Posted: 12:04 - 10 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200552430928&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
ask mike what he makes of that,might give him a offer for it and push it home
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'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011
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| Bloke |
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Bloke
Crazy Courier
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| Howling TerrorOutOfOffice |
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Howling TerrorOutOfOffice
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| Posted: 13:07 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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..................................................
[edit] original topic has changed
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Last edited by Howling TerrorOutOfOffice on 22:20 - 10 Dec 2010; edited 1 time in total |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 18:54 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| rob yarrr wrote: | https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200552430928&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
ask mike what he makes of that,might give him a offer for it and push it home |
See Snowie's revised post, warning the optimism of a 'project-bike'.
That particular NSR?
Well for what you are after, I wouldn't be looking for a sports 125, certainly not one thats obviousely been muggered about with by a speed-crazed numpty boy-racer, looking for 33bhp, on an L-plate, out of a bike that never made more than 26bhp even in full-power form.
It WONT be a quick and easy fix. It certainly wont be cheap, and the bike at the end of the day wont be easily saleable, or valuable.
For me, it's a non-starter, and can remain that way!
for you, I think your better off looking for KH's, RSX's, and the like.
Actually, a KH125, done neatly, is a wonderful device...... much more motorcycle for your money than a CG, with similar virtues, but performance that can often match that of sports 125's.
Or just rent a bludy school bike, get your test out the way and start riding the ruddy fazer!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 20:13 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| rob yarrr wrote: | haha i need a thing to do up,once i get the new engine running in the cg i won't have anything to keep me occupied |
Yes you will.... you can take the CG out on 'extended' test rides and see how much abuse it'll take until you break it......
Doing mechanics for fun, is a different thing to doing them for ecconomy. BUT you have to look at it as your hobby, and like fishing or golf, where people will spend hundreds if not thousands on permits or green fees, they'll never see back, in the vein hope of outwitting a fish, or loosing a heavy ping-pong ball in a hole, you treat it as the cost of your hobby.
That nugget filed; think long and hard about what you really want from a Project-Bike, and if its just cheep spanner twiddling, I'd go looking for something bigger that 125, where you wont be bidding against optistic, over enthusiastic newbies.
Just for fun, good one for you would be something like my DT...
https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/030_035_Yamaha_DT/Picture20027.gif
DT175MX, was a pre '83 125-Learner Restrictions, 'Learner-Bike', and a very popular one, being the first trail-bike to get MX style mono-shock rear suspension.
As such, the DT175MX, is to be found in relative abundance. No longer learner-legal, most ended up field-bikes or in the backs of garages, as learners couldn't ride them, and full licence holders could have something bigger.
And restorers have ignored them for years, as there were so many about, and the rarer, earlier, Twin-Shocks were much more desirable, and more obviousely 'old-fasioned'.
So you can pick up a project base for pennies. A complete and running bike, thats a bit dog-eared will often not fetch more than three or four hundred, and for that might even have an MOT on it.
But they are BEGINNING to get some 'classic' interest. Some bikes are being restored, and they are being offered for more realistic values. Though pretty 'mint' examples still struggle to fetch much over a grand.
Under 225cc, same tax as a 125. OVER 125cc, its actually CHEAPER insurance!
But for the tinkerer..... ideal. air-colled single cylinder two-smoke motor. Reed-Valved, and auto-lubed, so not entirely rudimentary, but not exactly over-complicated with power-valves, water-pumps and computer controlled ignition... it has points. Mono-Shock is a simple cantilever, so no multi-linkages to start messing with, and drum brakes, so simple cables and shoes, no pistons, seals, and hydraulic lines to confound or add expense.
But but best of all, they remained in production... not sure they have even stopped now! for third world markets, so just about EVERY part in the book, is still cheap and readily avialable, AND theres still loads of after-market goodies for them.
For what you are after, I'd take a long hard look. No more vexing on the tool-box than an RSX100, and more 'doable' given you can still buy, brand new off the shelf body-work, exhausts, barels, cases, seats etc, and there are more 'donors' being broken for second hand spares.
Its also a a heck of a lot more bike, and far more capable, and more 'fun'!
Its an off-roader, and where you live there are loads of luberly 'green-lanes' for you to go and explore on one! And they are a hoot to ride.
Its also a genuinely 'old' bike. Yamaha dropped them from the official UK catalogue in 1983, so you are looking at a 27-32 year old bike, not a 15-20 year old 'old-fasioned' bike, that as mentioned is starting to get noticed in the classic freternity, and which stands some chance of being worth 'something' for classic interest, where an old commuter wont generate the same interest.
Only thing is, you cant ride it on your PROVISIONAL...... but you got the CG fixed.... and you got teh Fazer, so get your licence on the CG, keep spanners away from the fazer so you have something to rely on, and get a DT175 to get your hands dirty on!
Plenty about, all for sensible money; which give or take £50-£100 is probably neither here nor there in the overall project costs, so take your time, and pick a good-one to go for.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 20:22 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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No specs for the bikes in the first post ....  
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miketovey wrote: I am not a teenage emo with "girl problems", just a 29 year old loser.
The Shaggy D.A. wrote: Ignore him, it's just a man/child/troll hybrid. |
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Hetzer
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Posted: 20:30 - 10 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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Shut up you twat. 
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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Livefast123
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| Posted: 21:05 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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Relentless
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Posted: 21:31 - 10 Dec 2010  Post subject: |
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Stalin moaned ...
Shut up you twat.
No
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miketovey wrote: I am not a teenage emo with "girl problems", just a 29 year old loser.
The Shaggy D.A. wrote: Ignore him, it's just a man/child/troll hybrid. |
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MinhDinh
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| Posted: 21:51 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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How can a CG be blamed for seizing when it was stolen and ragged?
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Ichy
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Howling TerrorOutOfOffice
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| SnowTigeress |
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SnowTigeress
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SnowTigeress
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 23:58 - 10 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| Marki wrote: | I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this post. I'm guessing that you are trying to advise new bikers not to buy heavily used bikes based on your own experience? |
Pretty much.... maybe 'warning' them against looking to buy 'too' cheap, or more, think they can save huge sums of money buying a 'fixer-upper'.
| Marki wrote: | I apologise if I've missed pertinent facts |
Yes, you have.
Chronology is, that she had most of those bikes before she met me. I had nothing to do with them.
It was her ex-fiance that helped her spend her money on them, insisting they could be 'sorted out' really easily....... bloke didn't even own a socket set, and thought the cure for a knackered chain was to knock a couple of links out...... with a nail and half a house-brick!
| MinhDinh wrote: | How can a CG be blamed for seizing when it was stolen and ragged? |
Many bikes get nicked and ragged, and sold on 'Stolen-Recovered'. Of the damage done by twockers, engines usually aren't that vulnerable to Twoker abuse, normally they smash head-lamps off to get at wiring to butcher, then dent tanks and bend handle-bars and pegs, crashing them.
But the point was, it siezed. CG's AREN'T 'indestructable'.
And Mechanic told her it needed a new engine, which from his point of view was more ecconomical than paying his time to rebore it, and rebuild it, but effectively made it scrap, becouse it was more expensive than the bike was worth.
Had I been around at the time, I'd have hauled it over, pulled it to bits, got my local freindly machinest to re-cut the barrel, valve seats and guides and put it all back togther with new rings, piston, bearings etc, for not a lot of money, though probably not 'cheaply'.... but certainly more cheaply than throwing it away, and buying another heap to go wrong and be thrown away when that gave problems! Which were the two TZR's!
So as a complete newbie, she had no-one explaining what COULD be done, or how to do it, or what was best... resulting in lots of wasted money, and that really is the point, not what actually caused it to sieze.
(Though it could be inferred, that after getting it back, pretty much unscathed, it cant have been THAT badly abused by twockers, and had she known more about bikes, IF the twockers had done something, like stuff soil in the oil filler, or had it on its side long enough to drain most of the oil out the over-flow, that helped it sieze, then had she been more mechanically aware, or better advised, bike would have been better checked over, before she went back out on it, and stuff like that sorted through checking the oil, changing the oil or cleaning the oil strainer.)
But she mentioned two bikes that a mechanic had deemed 'scrap' for want of an engine / engine rebuild. Other was MY CB125, which the SELLER had taken to a dealer when it wouldn't start and was told it needed a complete rebuild or engine, which would cost more than he'd get another bike for, hence he sold it to me, as a 'fixer upper', where if I'm lucky and theres nothing more seriouse lurking in there, I should be able to do a rebuild, without paying dealer labour and have a bike thats cost me a few quid short of market value; but ONLY becouse I have the time, tools and dexterity, as well as the inclination.
Ecconomically, its a big job, a lot of work, with risk it wont fix or fix as cheaply, even without pricing my labour, for a what is actually a fairly small saving on what a working bike would have cost. We're talking £100 or so here, IF theres no major horrors lurking in there, and a project that is likely to take a couple of weeks of my time, and I have ALL week to give it, not just a few hours on the week-end.
| Marki wrote: | Unfortunately the learner bike market consists of overpriced new bikes, unreliable Chinese versions, or badly maintained learner fodder with little in between. |
Jup... what she was sort of trying to illustrate.
| Marki wrote: | Of greater use would be a personal, owner driven, guide to what bikes each new rider brought, what was involved with maintaining it, and how much did it sell for afterwards. |
Which is sort of what she was trying to do, with the warning, that when it comes to lower end market bikes, you really need to know what MAINTENECE is before hand!
What she was showing was, that without knowing what sort of maintenence to do, when or how, she was up a gum tree without a canoo..... err... paddle? AH! MONKEY WRENCH! when anything went wrong.... and THAT is whats cost her money and made her 'cheap' bikes more expensive and rather less enjoyable than perhaps they should have been....
(There IS another point to this thread though; and that's Snowie actually offering something a bit more than 'banter' and the progress of her restoration project... she's naturally rather shy and retiring, and tends to cower in the corner agreeing with every-one else, and doing what they tell her..... another reason she's had so many SHIT bikes! So, having gained little experience, its her tentative attempts to 'share', and not be told she's a "stupid no-nothing woman!" which, I have in as many words, sat and listened to her being told by old freinds and family, and she's only JUST getting the confidence to assert herself as something more..... on which score... she gets 120% for effort on this one.... evenb if her first edit was a bit of an abortion, and though this one MAY be a bit clumsy, still reckon she deserves a good pass mark, what 70% for useful content! And this IS the Newbie board)
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Howling TerrorOutOfOffice
Super Spammer
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
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| Posted: 00:08 - 11 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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New bikers i reckon.
Hmm. You're the kind of man that demands a proper explanation.
Well, it's where i'd go searching for 125(ish) info.
Pat
Christ...i'm so crap at this forum stuff. I'm not much better in the flesh (Oh yeah...you met me  )
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 00:09 - 11 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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| snowtigeress wrote: | Ill leave that for Tef im already left my comfort zone posting this 1 |
Ten out of ten plus a bit for leaving it though dear.
as for the Owners Reports, I'd struggle to write such a post. Prices I've paid for most of my bikes have little relevence in todays market, as most of them were bought long, long ago. I also dont have reseale prices, and I have rarely sold any of them! I still have MOST of them. and as for maintenence.... they get stripped down, played with, overhauled, tweeked, improved and put back together... sometimes they even work afterward!
though thinking about it, UBG did publish an owners review of the VF1000 i wrote!
| Marki wrote: | I'll start the thread but I'm too thick to work out where it should be? New Biker, general,?? |
Show & Tell?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Relentless |
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Relentless
Banned
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
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| Posted: 10:24 - 11 Dec 2010 Post subject: |
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Found on the net or general bike chat .. 
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miketovey wrote: I am not a teenage emo with "girl problems", just a 29 year old loser.
The Shaggy D.A. wrote: Ignore him, it's just a man/child/troll hybrid. |
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| Ichy |
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Ichy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| Bloke |
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Bloke
Crazy Courier
Joined: 06 Aug 2010
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 15 years, 85 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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He was a great bike,He started first time just after he was stolen i was riding to coalville when he started only managing to do 10mph...
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