I was told size matters... but does it?

[flamegrape]

I am looking to buy a new bike (hopefully) this year.

I'm not planning on taking it on the track but ride it on the street and for general ride outs and bike meets... the usual stuff.

I was told size matters... but I'm torn between a 1000cc and another 600cc (I currently have a ZX-6R). A friend is currently looking for a Blade or an SP2 - and will only buy 1000cc bikes.

My question is: Which is better?

I think the 600cc is way fast enough for general road riding, control and acceleration is superb. Can you really get a 1000cc bikes full potential on road?

Any info or advice is muchly appreciated!
____________________
Jonny (Riding his Kawasaki ZX6R J1)
It's one big learning curve right now

[Damon]

After reading your initial post I think you have made up your mind already. Get a 600

Or even a 750 if you really want to go bigger.

[Acemastr]

Never seen the purpose of 1000cc bikes, i find it far too easy to get above jail time speeds on my 600, i can't imagine i'd ever get out of 3rd gear on a litre bike.

He's just wily waving, in my OPINION, litre bikes are just showing off unless you ride it for the torque
____________________
2017 KTM 350 XC-F - 2014 Yamaha R6 - 2005 Yamaha YZ125
2016 Toyota Tacoma Limited

[c_dug]

On a 20 year old 600 I still find myself regularly sitting at 3 figure speeds, a 1000 for me would probably be a bad idea.

Depends on what it was designed for though, for my next bike I think I would like a KTM990SM which I suspect won't be anywhere near as comfortable to do that kind of speed on, but will give way more shits and giggles at lower speeds. Plus it looks wicked!

That is my theory at least.
____________________
I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

[soforene]

[flamegrape]

[instigator]

Much prefer 1000cc machines for mile crunching which is all I ride for these days. They don't feel as stressed half of the time and you have to change gear less. I have a G1 ZX-6R at the moment and whilst it may be down 20bhp on current 600's, I still can't envisage another 20bhp will make me change gear any less frantically.

Give me a gsxr-1000K2 engine any day of the week. Fine around town and biking bliss on the motorway. Riding the wave of torque.



P.S I couldn't give a shit about riding bikes around the countryside, getting my knee down or indeed going fast at all. I like 1000cc's for the torque and ease of use. None of this "oh you cant get the best out of a 1000cc on the road" shit. 99 out of 100 people here couldn't get the best out of a GPZ500s let alone a sports 600.

[Teflon-Mike]

Theres Power, and there's power delivery.
Power = Engine capacity x Cylinder Pressure x Engine Revs.
Bigger displacement motor can make more power at lower revs.

600 IL4 tends to have a lot of its power stacked at the top of the rev range, and feel gutless 'off' the cam.

This can make it more fun to ride, as the difference in power 'delivery' ie how much more power is delivered per extra Rpm as it comes on cam, can make it feel like its pulling harder, and the difference in power gives more 'contrast' to the power delivery.

It can also 'encourage' you to ride harder & faster, as off-cam it feels like it wont do anything, so you have to thrash it to get it to shift.

1000IL4 making more power accross the rev range, pulls harder lower down. The 'contrast' in power delivery as it ramps up, coming on the cam, not being so great, some people actually suggest that the 'bigger' bikes dont pull as hard, becouse they don't get such dramatic 'surge' as the power ramps up.

The extra low down torque, can make the bike more 'tractable' and easier to ride slower, having enogh grunt at lower revs that you dont have to thrash it as hard in the lower gears, or make as many down changes.

Eg an 'over-take' in a 50 limit. 600, in 5th, probably pulling something like 3K revs. Crack the tap, and it 'wont' go; so to get past the car your lined up for you have to clock it down to 4th or even third, to get the motor spinning at something more like 6K, to get at the power to make it actually over take, but coming on the cam at 6K, your unleashing maybe 60-70bhp to make that over take, and the bike goes, but tears up to around 90 in the cars length.

Same situation on a 1000cc IL4, in 5th, trailing a car at 50, maybe pulling 2,500rpm, open the throttles, bikes still nowhere near the power, but with 60% more capacity, you have something like 60% more thrust, so its got teh same kind of pulling 'stomp' as the 600 had at maybe 4,500rpm. wont go likc the clappers, but past that car, it will go, and briskly enough for you to make the pass and pull back in, possibly without breakin the 60 limit, or having to clog down to 4th.

But its all subjective.

NO-ONE can 'exploit' the ALL capabilities of a bike, whether a 600 or a 1000, similteniousely.

Bike has many capabilities, many of them mutually exclusive, like speed and ecconomy. So, bike may have the capability to do 150mph, and the capability to return 70mpg, but not at the same time. Ride it everywhere at 55, you'll get max ecconomy, ride it full throttle everywhere you'll get max performance, worst ecconomy.

1000cc bike may have a 150bhp power rating, compared to a 600's 100bhp power rating, but that power rating is merely the PEAK power the engine might deliver at a certein engine speed with the throttles wide open.

Accelerating through the engines range of speeds, it wont be making anything like that.

Holding a constant speed, throttle part open, it'll only be making the power needed to over-come the drag at that speed.

So, 60mph on an R6, or 60mph on an R1 give or take a bhp or so, actual power being delivered by the engine will be the same, becouse the speeds the same, and on similar sized bikes with similar aerodynnamics, drag will be roughly the same.

So when you say a litre bike rider cant exploit the performance his bike has over a 600... well, what you MEAN is, unless he's a loonie, he cant go much if any quicker on the litre bike than you can on the 600.

In FACT, riding at the same speed, he IS exploiting his bikes performance cabability.... the capability to hold teh same road-speed at lower engine revs, IS an aspect of performance, and his ability to deliver 60% more thrust at any given point in the rev-range to accelerate without changing gear, is a capability he can exploit........

He doesn't HAVE to go faster than you on teh 600 to exploit the engines extra power... just not work as hard to go AS fast......

Lots of reasons for picking a litre bike over a middle-weight, and that is just one of them.

Litre twin, has similar power to a 600-4, but less weight, and more tractible power, often making it easier to get at and use the power, more often, so more easily exploited performance from the bigger capacity machine, even though its performance specs on paper aren't much different.

But, granted, an awful lot of the time, its simply bragging rights and ego-boosting. Even a 600 has such a surfit of real-world performance few riders can make full use of much of it very often, on the road, and its significantly shear feel-good factor from believing that they have 'tamed the beast' of the big-bikes..... which ironically is a bit perverse, as the extra power and more tractable power delivery can make them easier to ride and actually easier to ride more slowly!

But then, thats sports-bikes for the road, in general, whatever thier capacity....
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Alex A]

It's not about outright speeds, it's about usability. And the low down torque you get with (most) 1000cc bikes makes it a much easier/lazier proposition on the roads. If you want to accellerate, you don't need to think all that much about gearing, just open the throttle and you'll be at the speed you want very quickly, whatever gear you're in. Want to overtake, just position the bike and open the throttle. No need to faff around looking for a gear with the power you need at that speed. As such, a GSX-R1000 is a much more practical proposition as a roadbike than an R6. Yes, they're also extremely fast, but that's not their only purpose and use (unlike the more extreme 600s).

Then you have 1l V-twins which are more like 600s/750s in terms of top end power (well, 100-130 at the wheel). So they're about as fast in a straight line, but make more power everywhere else and make their power in a very different manner to the IL4 machines. So you're not necessarily going any faster when you're all out, but (IMO) the grunt of the twin makes it a lot more fun. And again, it gives you the practicality of having very useful power over a much broader RPM range than a 600 supersport bike.

You may not see the point of anything more than a 600cc for the road. But since they're only really good at going all out, and all out is (generally) much too fast for the road, then I don't see the point of highly tuned, revvy 600s on the road. With a 1000cc machine you can comfortably ride it as slow or fast as you want without it becoming a chore, and it'll also be as quick as anything on the track, or the TT.
____________________
Current: Ducati Panigale R / Ducati Streetfighter S / Suzuki GSX-R1000 L5

[flamegrape]

Teflon-Mike... what an absolutely cracking post!!
I read (and enjoyed!) every word - there is so much information in there and so many good and valid points.

The explanation of the BHP output on the 600 vs 1000, at the same speed is something I'd never thought about before. Of course it makes total sense that the BHP is the maximum output and general riding will only use the power required to shift the bike.

[Paxovasa]

[flamegrape]

[Gone]

Size only matters to those who don't have it.

Those of us that do never even think about it.

[flamegrape]

[chris-red]

Teflon mike has probably cover this (TL;DR)


Choose the bike not the engine size, engine size means very little.

My 600 has more power than my 900, infact my 600 had double the power of a friends 800 and my dad's 650.
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.

[flamegrape]

[chris-red]

[swiftb]

one thing ive found going from a sports 600 to 750 is the lack of need to change gear - 3rd will comfortably do 30mph and 130mph. Ive not had that much saddle time at the moment to really give a good solid evaluation of the bike but I can say the power delivery is extremely linear - theres no head snapping 'power band' so that rushing feeling you get when you hit the high rpms on a 6 is lacking - or its a very toned down version of it! I believe linear delivery is common with larger cc bikes. Personally at the minute im not sure I like it - I liked working the gearbox on my 600 and I loved the snap of power at high rpm. The 750 doesnt actually 'feel' as fast so im probably going faster to make it feel faster if you dig me!
So time will tell - Il either adapt to it or il get bored of it and change for something else - probably something with less cubes if its an IL4 sports - though this spring I intend to test ride the likes of the superduke and hypermotard see if theres some fun to be had there.

[Villers]

If I had to choose going to work on my hayabusa with its calm 1300cc's vs using the 636 Id take the bigger bike nearly every time. If I wanted to do 300 miles I would prefer the bigger bike too. Unless I was after a 30 mile rag about Id prefer not to have a low torque engine screaming at me on overtakes when all Im trying to do is get somewhere.

Personally I would see a litre IL4 and a twin as two completely seperate choices. I also think the twin torque argument is a bit lax as my hayabusa would pull equally as hard from anywhere as my litre tein if not better.

Big engines for me mean an easy life with accessible fun on tap, even on the litre V twin I find myself dropping gears for overtakes, think I need to try a litre IL4!
____________________
RS125 > CBR6 > SV650S > ZX636R > GSX1300RZ Hayabusa > 06 RSVR Mille > SV1000S > Street Triple 765 RS

[Frost]

I like the top end power of a 600, but you've got to rev it to get there, which i sometimes can't be bothered with. a 1000 IL4 has slightly more bottom end power, but goes just too mental top end. Hence my next bike will be larger than a 600, but have less than 4 cylinders, i really fancy one of those 1200 MotoGuzzis. Ideally i think i'd like 100-120bhp and a red line < 9000.

[G]

[0ddball]

You'll be lucky to get the full potential from an RS125 on the road so thinking in those terms is pointless.

[Villers]

Define full potential?
____________________
RS125 > CBR6 > SV650S > ZX636R > GSX1300RZ Hayabusa > 06 RSVR Mille > SV1000S > Street Triple 765 RS

[chris-red]

[keggyhander]

There's no replacement for displacement.