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| N cee thirty |
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UpcomingChris
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 Posted: 14:20 - 31 Jan 2011  Post subject: |
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Ok, Thanks alot for the help  |
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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| Posted: 14:32 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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Get the lower amperage ones. They take different thicknesses of wire. The flashers will have thin wire. If you put thin wire in a terminal designed for thick wire, it won't grip properly.
Usually red thin, blue medium, yellow thick. So get red ones
You will need the correct crimping tool. If you try to squeeze them on with pliers, they will not make proper contact and will not stay on properly.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 16:49 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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| stinkwheel wrote: | Get the lower amperage ones. They take different thicknesses of wire. The flashers will have thin wire. If you put thin wire in a terminal designed for thick wire, it won't grip properly.
Usually red thin, blue medium, yellow thick. So get red ones
You will need the correct crimping tool. If you try to squeeze them on with pliers, they will not make proper contact and will not stay on properly. |
Personally I find that the grip a crimp has on a wire is often less than the grip the female bullet has on the male....
result?
when you pull the connectors apart, instead of the bullets coming apart, the wires come out the bullets!
Crimp connectors also tend to be only slightly more reliable than twisted wire & tape.....
I pull the insulation off them. Put the stripped wire through the crimp, fold it back where the insulation was, then solder for good electrical and mechanical joint where the crimps dont pull off when you pull the joint!
You can get propper solder-on bullet terminals from e-bay or Vehicle wiring Products, usually a lot cheaper than Halfords.
AH! DONT GO TO HALFORDS!
Just spotted e-bay adds at teh bottom! Pretty sure that the Halfords crimp connectors are a different diameter than the standard Japanese ones. They are bigger... a lot bigger. Cant remember the sizes off the top of my head, and the battery has gone in my digiometer to measure the ones knocking about on snowies buje, but theink the crimp bullets are about 5mm dia, OE fit Japanese bullets are about 3.5mm
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| UpcomingChris |
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UpcomingChris
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| Posted: 17:01 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | stinkwheel wrote: | Get the lower amperage ones. They take different thicknesses of wire. The flashers will have thin wire. If you put thin wire in a terminal designed for thick wire, it won't grip properly.
Usually red thin, blue medium, yellow thick. So get red ones
You will need the correct crimping tool. If you try to squeeze them on with pliers, they will not make proper contact and will not stay on properly. |
Personally I find that the grip a crimp has on a wire is often less than the grip the female bullet has on the male....
result?
when you pull the connectors apart, instead of the bullets coming apart, the wires come out the bullets!
Crimp connectors also tend to be only slightly more reliable than twisted wire & tape.....
I pull the insulation off them. Put the stripped wire through the crimp, fold it back where the insulation was, then solder for good electrical and mechanical joint where the crimps dont pull off when you pull the joint!
You can get propper solder-on bullet terminals from e-bay or Vehicle wiring Products, usually a lot cheaper than Halfords.
AH! DONT GO TO HALFORDS!
Just spotted e-bay adds at teh bottom! Pretty sure that the Halfords crimp connectors are a different diameter than the standard Japanese ones. They are bigger... a lot bigger. Cant remember the sizes off the top of my head, and the battery has gone in my digiometer to measure the ones knocking about on snowies buje, but theink the crimp bullets are about 5mm dia, OE fit Japanese bullets are about 3.5mm |
AH... Too late  , only cost me £3 anyway so no biggie, i got the smallest i could find because i noticed the ones on the bilke are small, they look the same size as far as i can remember, Will have a play with them, looking at them it looks like it iwll be fine, But we shal see |
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| defblade |
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defblade
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Teflon-Mike
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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MalcolmT
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 20:05 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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| MalcolmT wrote: | The main reason for crimping rather than soldering wires is preventing wires fracturing due to vibration.
All the wiring uses stranded wire which handles far more movment before work hardening and facture. By crimping the wire remains stranded right up to the connector.
Have you ever tried to solder a wire into a crimp connector and wondered why it broke off.
Malcolm(t) |
Yeah.... OK... I was responsible for qualification testing of electrical equipment for aeroplanes.... I know a thing or two about shaking, baking and soaking electrical equipment to death... believe me, THE single biggest reason for using crimp connectors is COST.
Where the wire is terminated you have a stress raiser. Constrained in a crimp, putting pressure on the wire, you actually have a smaller section held under pressure, hence greater strain. If its held loosely enough to provide compleience, its not making a good mechanical joint and that complience is as likely to let the wire work loose under vibration as it is 'save' the joint from cracking.
The 'ideal' wire termination, provides stress relief for five times the wires diameter from the termination.
Usually a shrink-wrap sleeve over the joint, extending from the terminal over the joint-tube, then 5x wire diameter along the insulation, to provide support and limit complience to the more flexible wire itself.
Vibration should NOT be a problem, whether crimped or soldered. If it IS then either the wire (or loom) doesn't have sufficient support or is under strain.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| MalcolmT |
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MalcolmT
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| Posted: 20:45 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | MalcolmT wrote: | The main reason for crimping rather than soldering wires is preventing wires fracturing due to vibration.
All the wiring uses stranded wire which handles far more movment before work hardening and facture. By crimping the wire remains stranded right up to the connector.
Have you ever tried to solder a wire into a crimp connector and wondered why it broke off.
Malcolm(t) |
Yeah.... OK... I was responsible for qualification testing of electrical equipment for aeroplanes.... I know a thing or two about shaking, baking and soaking electrical equipment to death... believe me, THE single biggest reason for using crimp connectors is COST.
Where the wire is terminated you have a stress raiser. Constrained in a crimp, putting pressure on the wire, you actually have a smaller section held under pressure, hence greater strain. If its held loosely enough to provide compleience, its not making a good mechanical joint and that complience is as likely to let the wire work loose under vibration as it is 'save' the joint from cracking.
The 'ideal' wire termination, provides stress relief for five times the wires diameter from the termination.
Usually a shrink-wrap sleeve over the joint, extending from the terminal over the joint-tube, then 5x wire diameter along the insulation, to provide support and limit complience to the more flexible wire itself.
Vibration should NOT be a problem, whether crimped or soldered. If it IS then either the wire (or loom) doesn't have sufficient support or is under strain. |
Hey Teflon,
Good points, my opinion comes from a lifetime working with industrial instrumentation and power electrics. I agree about cost but I reckon the cost saving is labour to make the crimp compared the time it takes to solder a connection.
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Wise words from Ogri.
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 21:36 - 31 Jan 2011 Post subject: |
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| MalcolmT wrote: | I agree about cost but I reckon the cost saving is labour to make the crimp compared the time it takes to solder a connection. |
Pretty much.
Cost of the termination is much the same.
Soldering is a 'skilled' process, crimping isn't, so lower labour rate.
It's also a 'cold' process, so no power requirement. Just a pair of pliers.
And it has less 'variance'
Soldering, you can get wide variety of 'faults'. Crimping you either make a joint or you don't, basically.
Soldering is the superior process and makes much stronger, more durable and reliable joints, but crimping, with appropriate compensation can be almost as 'good'.
But big thing is supporting and insulating the joint.
Working to the Mil-Spec for crimped connections on aero-applications, the terminals are a LOT different to the aluminium shit you get at Halfords, and a lot more expensive.
They tend to be plated brass or steel, and have 'bonded' insulation & support tubes, & requirements demand minimum length of heat-shrink support, sometimes doubled, depending on instance.
Done 'right' it makes a good joint.
I used to have a load of the heat-shrink tubing we used, and it was brilliant stuff.
Typical DIYer..... really ent going to do it to that kind of standard, and they sure as fuck wont be able to with the crappy bits you get in Halfords.
If they are keen enough to know to get better crimps from VWP or even Maplins, and a pro-crimp maker.......
Well, its a different level...
And for thirty odd years, I've used a soldering iron!
Its a skill, and one worth having.
Just been tackling the indicators on Snowies Super-Dream.
Wanted to put an earth strap in to be sure of getting good earth, but only place to 'bond' is the bolt holding the indicator on, and it hasn't very much room around it to get a ring terminal actually on it, and neatly under the rubber cover.
Could have used one, but it would have pushed the rubber away and looked ugly.
Two minutes, to strip back the wire, loop it and tin it, to make a connecter-less ring termination.... small, neat, cheap, reliable.
Lots of places where soldering just makes so much more sense, and is so much more versatile.
Broken wire? Rather than twist and wrap, what would you use, an crimp splice? Again less than a minute, to loop and tin, wrap of insulation, job done. No cost, no hunting for bits, and its a90% reliable mechanical and electrical joint.
Spade connections, bullets, whatever.... I could crimp them, but? For the sake of a few seconds and a dab of solder, I can stick the same connector on, and KNOW its going to stay there rather than hoping, or faffing about with heat-shrink.
Personal preference to a large degree, but, I trace SO many faults to crappy crimps.....
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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Posted: 22:31 - 31 Jan 2011  Post subject: |
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Ok. I have time for a quick empirical science before I go to the pub.
Hypothesis
A properly crimped, pre-insulated crimp terminal is strong as fuck and highly unlikely to have the wire pull out.
Materials
Two pieces of standard 17A automotive multicore cable (Halfords).
One pre-insulated ring terminal, a blue one. (99p small packet stand in local filling station).
One non-insulated ring terminal with silicone sleeve. (Vehicle wiring products)
One double ratchet crimping tool for pre-insulated terminals. (Maplin)
One single-acting crimping die for non-insulated terminals. (vehicle wiring products)
Two 7lb weights (Avery)
One plastic bucket. (11 litre capacity)
One "jobber" style workbench.
One M5 bolt.
One pyrex measuring jug.
Water.
Method
A terminal of each type was applied to the end of each piece of wire using the appropriate crimping tool.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/dscn1016.jpg
The bucket was tied to the other end of the piece of wire and suspended from the workbench using the bolt through the ring terminal so the bucket was hanging freely on the end of the terminal.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/dscn1017.jpg
The two 7lb (3.18kg) weights were placed in the bucket. Water was added in 0.5 litre (0.5kg) aliquots until the terminal parted company.
Results
The non-insulated terminal parted company with the wire after adding 3l of water, making a total mass of 9.36kg. A braking force of between 88.6 and 93.6 Netwons.
The pre-insulated terminal took 10l of water, at which point the bucket was full. Experiencing a load of 16.36kg (163.6Newtons). The absence of a bigger bucket prevented continuation of the experiment.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/dscn1018.jpg
The ring terminal showed significant deformation at this load.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/dscn1019.jpg
Conclusion
Properly applied pre-insulated terminals are strong as fuck. Even cheap ones.
Comment
The experiment would bear repeating with more repetitions and a bigger bucket. From observation of the conditions and by swinging on the bucket slightly (within a safe margin taking the risk of a large bucket of water landing on ones toes into account), it is entirely possible that the ring terminal itself would have failed before the wire pulled out of the crimp.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 20:26 - 01 Feb 2011 Post subject: |
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| stinkwheel wrote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: |
LOL....
You didn't happen to work at Lucas did you?
That's the sort of methods we used to test bits of aircraft & rocket!!!!
Only you seem to have a better bucket... yours looks like it has a metal handle you posh bugger!
Only thing... think it would have been more fun to have a go at AFTER going the pub........
Better still AT the pub! |
Annoyingly, the pub was closed because everybody is throwing cows at one another on facebook.
Still. It's no different to proof loading anything else, as long as your weights are accurate.
I'd happily bung a safe working load of 3kg on those crimps. |
Yeah, but unfortunately most are made by numpties with tin-plate stripper/crimpers, stuffing bell-wire into blue crimps, and either getting no insulation in the first grip, or too much, doubling the wire over to try and thicken it to grip, having stripped it too hard so theres actually only three strands of wire holding it at the insulation etc etc etc!
But I was being serious about the test rig; qualification testing stuff for aero-fit, an awful lot of the time 'basic' testing like that was done in the 'garage' on the back of the lab, with old paint pots full of water and nails hammered into planks of wood!
Enviromental testing was a bit different; big climate chambers cycling stuff through heat and humidity, salt spray and stuff, on a shaker table......
Hang on! Why would a pub be closed becouse of Face-Book?!?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| chris-red |
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?
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| Posted: 11:33 - 26 May 2011 Post subject: |
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Crimps + Small amount of Self Amalgamating Tape 
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Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything. |
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The last post was made 15 years, 37 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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