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rac3r
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Sharp Test - Big Brands Reply with quote

Been looking at some of the Sharp ratings for helmets and why is it that some of the main brands top models get poor scores? Like the Arain RX7, Shoei, HJC etc whereas some of the cheaper brands like Marushin for example are getting full stars?

Also do you use it as a guide when buying a new lid?
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nokiakeys
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually always do.

I got 2 helmets, both are 5 star, so I'm kinda happy with that
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G
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Re: Sharp Test - Big Brands Reply with quote

slow3r wrote:

Also do you use it as a guide when buying a new lid?

No. I go with what fits best and is in my current budget.

The tests are quite limited and I suspect don't translate to most real world crashes that well.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would imagine if there's any kind of "value for money" scoring, in the survey, a well made, less expensive helmet will get a good rating!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Explanation 1: it's a crap test created by pencil-pushing prats who don't know anything about actual helmet safety in practice.

Explanation 2: glossy full page adverts in SpeedWank Monthly and Power Ranger Jizzspurt cost a lot of money - you can't expect big name brands to actually spend on R&D as well.

Me, I go by sharp (and bought Marushin) because it's the only rating that might be objectively useful. Anything else is guaranteed to be subjective or speculative.
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rac3r
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently have a Marushin which I bought before the Sharp tests (it now has 5 stars)

My next lid will probably be Marushin because of the price, the sharp ratings kind of confirm my choice

Besides I can't afford an Arai/Shoei anyway Laughing
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the sharp tests is dropping a spike directly through the top of a lid. TO me that is a ridiculous test for a helmet.

I stick to the the lids the racers wear, I figure these guys have the choice of any lid they want and choose a certain one based one which they feel is best, I trust their opinions. I make sure it is lightweight and it fits.
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 23:27 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
I stick to the the lids the racers wear, I figure these guys go with whoever pays them the most to wear their kit. I make sure it is lightweight and it fits.


EFA

I have an AGV GP tech and it is a bit shite tbh.

The visor opening is so small that it blocks your view if you crouch into the bike; you either have your chin sitting in the wind or you ride like you are wearing a baseball hat and can see feck all if your head is anything but perfectly vertical. Also, the neck roll falls apart, even on the newer version they produced for it and within about 5 minutes of owning it, one of the upper vents seized so it only part closes. My neighbour has one too, same complaints.

Either Rossi is a moron and chose a crap lid, or they pay him loads to wear it.


I now ride in a £100 HJC FG-15. Much better.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

DonnyBrago wrote:
chris-red wrote:
I stick to the the lids the racers wear, I figure these guys go with whoever pays them the most to wear their kit. I make sure it is lightweight and it fits.


EFA

I have an AGV GP tech and it is a bit shite tbh.

The visor opening is so small that it blocks your view if you crouch into the bike; you either have your chin sitting in the wind or you ride like you are wearing a baseball hat and can see feck all if your head is anything but perfectly vertical. Also, the neck roll falls apart, even on the newer version they produced for it and within about 5 minutes of owning it, one of the upper vents seized so it only part closes. My neighbour has one too, same complaints.

Either Rossi is a moron and chose a crap lid, or they pay him loads to wear it.


I now ride in a £100 HJC FG-15. Much better.


I very much doubt people in top flight racing would wear a lid that would compromise their safety, especially Rossi, he has a fortune, why would he wear a helmet that wasn't up to it?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 03 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think everyone has made some good points, spoken from heart. Rather than say anything inflammatory, here's a picture of a kitten.

https://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-pictures/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cute-running-kitten-outside-picture.jpg
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Paulington
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PostPosted: 00:08 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The SHARP test is absolutely ridiculous. There is a reason I only use helmets that have the SNELL certification.

As said, the SHARP tests compromise of 32 impacts, but they are only in 5 regions of the helmet and really all quite samey, see their site.

The fastest speed they are tested at is 8.5m/s (or 19mph) which is rather slow.

Also, Sharp only tests the forces felt on the brain with hits, whereas the SNELL standard tests a fair bit more. They also test random helmets from the manufacturer, as soon as one fails bye bye rating.

The only helmets I buy are Arai racing helmets that have passed and have a SNELL standard certification, SNELL is so much more comprehensive, for comparison:

SNELL Standard Tests wrote:
1. Impact - Just like SHARP but at a higher speed, if the brain is subject to a force equal to or above 300G, instant failure of the helmet.

2. Roll-off - They apply a rotational load on the helmet whicvh is fastened using the standard straps to a head form by dropping it at a 135° and then a 180° angle. In this test the helmet is allowed to shift a small amount but must not come off or roll off any more than a certain amount or it is instantly failed.

3. Rentention - They load the jaw piece with a 23kg weight for 1 minute, they then simultaenously remove the 23kg weight and drop a 38kg weight that is attached to the jaw piece. The jaw piece is not allowed to move more than 30mm or it's instantly failed.

4. Chin bar - They drop a 5kg mass directly onto the chinbar from quite a height, the chin bar is not allowed to move more than a certain amount.

5. Shell penetration - They drop a 3kg pointed striker on to the helmet from a height, the shell may not be pierced or flex so the striker touches the head form, if either happens it fails.

6. Visor penetration - They shoot the visor in 3 seperate places using a lead pellet at 310mph. The visor can't be penetrated and the bump in the visor caused by the pellet can't exceed 2.5mm.


I have crashed in SNELL helmets and in 22-05 helmets and so have friends, in every single crash, SNELL helmets come out on top. Anything other I just don't trust and my head deserves the best. Laughing!
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
One of the sharp tests is dropping a spike directly through the top of a lid. TO me that is a ridiculous test for a helmet.

I stick to the the lids the racers wear, I figure these guys have the choice of any lid they want and choose a certain one based one which they feel is best, I trust their opinions. I make sure it is lightweight and it fits.


AFAIK, the high impact test is adopted by all the test authorities of any worth and is such an extreme test that, if a helmet passes, you can reasonably expect it cope with most things the average biker is likely to subject it to.

As for trusting what the racers wear, that's got to be one of the worst reasons for buying any piece of equipment; for one thing (as someone else has pointed out) they wear what they get paid to wear, for another, their kit often bears no resemblance to what you get in the shop and it's not unheard of for them to wear an item with someone else's logo on it, if it suits them.
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Ingah
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have heard criticism about every form of testing - this includes Snell (the 300G allowed is apparently way over what would kill you - Edit: Thinking about it - it was a while ago i read about it - i'm not sure if i'm confusing 22-05 and Snell, i know one results in quite "hard" helmets, the other in "softer" helmets, for want of a better term - each with advantages and disadvantages).

That said, in this country we have the EU standard 22-05 they all need to meet (so irrelevant when choosing between UK helmets), and this SHARP test.

Whilst i accept the SHARP test is flawed (read plenty of criticism), i do use the results - as such i didn't buy my girlfriend the CS-R1 that fitted her well - 1*. We ended up in a few more shops, where i got her a 4* Shark helmet. I am perfectly happy to buy and use CL-STs (3*) for myself. I am an all the gear, all the time person. Even when i was doing 50cc scooter pizza delivery.

I go for fit and price first (i need to be able to afford to replace it if it gets hit without being reluctant due to it costing too much - ergo potentially riding in an unsafe lid), and then once i'm happy with a helmet i'll check it's SHARP rating isn't 1*. If it ever came to 2 helmets that actually bloody fitted me properly at once to choose from, i'd use price, SHARP rating, build quality and desired features to decide between them. Brand, i'd pay less attention to. Edit: Another feature that could really swing it for me is other manufacturers offering the helmet check service offered by Arai - that alone makes me want to pay double or more for the Arai (i was close, until i saw the Condor was of course very expensive, didn't fit me perfectly, AND 2*...), simply because i don't need to throw my lid in the bin so damn often.
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MinhDinh
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The area where the inpact test is done is apparently around the sides. Arai and Shoei claim that most crashes do not impact at that spot because or shoulders usually protect the side.

In some ways, it is true, we would slide on or sides, and having been in a crash before, I slid down and hit the back of my helmet.

The Shoei back vent thing broke, but the helmet held up and only had scratches.

My second crash was a truck that hit me at 10 MPH. I got dropped to my left and my helmet did not touch the floor.

All I can say is, I am very comfortable in my helmet, and comfort is important while riding. The pin lock included allow me to see better in the rain, which is obviously important.

The vents help with steaming up a tiny bit, but the light weight, and decent peripheral vision is a lot better than Cabergs and other brands that I have tried on.

I don't know why people care that much anyway, bikes on the whole are more dangerous than a car, so get a car if safety is paramount!
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MinhDinh
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The area where the inpact test is done is apparently around the sides. Arai and Shoei claim that most crashes do not impact at that spot because or shoulders usually protect the side.

In some ways, it is true, we would slide on or sides, and having been in a crash before, I slid down and hit the back of my helmet.

The Shoei back vent thing broke, but the helmet held up and only had scratches.

My second crash was a truck that hit me at 10 MPH. I got dropped to my left and my helmet did not touch the floor.

All I can say is, I am very comfortable in my helmet, and comfort is important while riding. The pin lock included allow me to see better in the rain, which is obviously important.

The vents help with steaming up a tiny bit, but the light weight, and decent peripheral vision is a lot better than Cabergs and other brands that I have tried on.

I don't know why people care that much anyway, bikes on the whole are more dangerous than a car, so get a car if safety is paramount!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The nice thing about SHARP is that they show you the results for each impact area, so if you're only planning to have face plants, you can get an appropriate helmet for that.

I like snell, but if it is a stricter test than SHARP, then any snell helmet should be SHARP 5 star anyway, right? So you can start with the SHARP 5 star list (which is handily UK-centric) then find a snell rated one from there.
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G
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, I remember some stuff suggesting that helmets designed to pass snell tests were actually likely to be less useful in a crash.

My caberg justisumo feels 'plasticy' and weak, it gets 4 stars, let down by the sides. However a crash that was between the front and the sides I thought it did very well. Apparantly this 'flex' is intentionally built in to the shell.

Sharp also do not take account of other things like weight. A heavier helmet can cause more problems as the helmet adds to the momentum of your head and can cause worse whiplash etc.
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Nixon
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The nice thing about SHARP is that they show you the results for each impact area, so if you're only planning to have face plants, you can get an appropriate helmet for that.

I like snell, but if it is a stricter test than SHARP, then any snell helmet should be SHARP 5 star anyway, right? So you can start with the SHARP 5 star list (which is handily UK-centric) then find a snell rated one from there.


No i't doesnt work like that because The Arai RX7 GP is Snell rated and only 4 Star Sharp rated.

The biggest flaw with SHARP is they don't give out the criteria they use to calculate the star rating, we know how they conduct the test, but we don't know how they come up with a score which correlates with the star system. As someone already mentioned if a helmet costs more than £250 then it may lose 10 points where as a sub £100 may get an additional 10 points, which completely destroys the integrity of the system, why should someone else decide what the "ideal" value of my head is?

The Bike industry as a whole are putting a lot of pressure on sharp for complete transparency in the ratings, hence the release of the specific test criteria last year, but we still don't have the true facts!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixon wrote:
No i't doesnt work like that because The Arai RX7 GP is Snell rated and only 4 Star Sharp rated.


As I said, if Snell is stricter than SHARP...

The RX7 GP gets mediocre side impact results, as you can clearly see on the SHARP site. As noted above, that may be a design feature, and you can use the SHARP results to decide for yourself whether that's important to you.


nixon wrote:
As someone already mentioned if a helmet costs more than £250 then it may lose 10 points where as a sub £100 may get an additional 10 points


Where on earth is that idea coming from?

I can't see any suggestion anywhere on the SHARP site that price has any bearing at all on the SHARP score, nor can I see any sane reason why it would.

What I'm seeing is a lot of helmet manufacturers who have designed to the Snell test getting caught out by SHARP and crying foul.

Personally, I think it's great - we don't get to choose the impact point, and I'd rather be wearing a helmet that excels in all tests, not just the one specific test that it was designed to pass.

Wouldn't you?
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Paxovasa
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

No amount of testing can cover every eventuality, so I go for the best fitting and the one with best design and features.

Anyone remember the Felipe Massa incident with the spring?
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rac3r
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paxovasa wrote:

Anyone remember the Felipe Massa incident with the spring?


I remember that but I can't remember if it hit the visor area or the actual helmet?

I might go an try something like an AGV and see what it's like quality/fit wise compared to my Marushin
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iooi
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 04 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paxovasa wrote:
Anyone remember the Felipe Massa incident with the spring?


About 2/3 down. It hit the helmet just above the visor opening.

End of the day as far as riders are concerned its the fit that counts. If your head/brain hits a solid object at ay sort of speed its how fast your head slows down that is the issue. Not if the helmet stays intact.
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