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Cheaper insurance for women ruled unfair

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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 09:28 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Cheaper insurance for women ruled unfair Reply with quote
https://bit.ly/ecbmE7

I wonder if they'll do it on age discrimnation next? That could REALLY cause some problems for the insurance industry.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just saw this and new there would be a thread already.

Bit of a joke IMO. Insurance is based on the person, to make it equal for everyone, even one factor is a massive fail for the insurance companies. Now I am not "on their side" but looking at it from a business point of view, it doesn't make sense.
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Chalky.
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PostPosted: 09:51 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
The PC world taking over.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Artist wrote:
Bit of a joke IMO. Insurance is based on the person, to make it equal for everyone


That is the issue with basing a large part of the premium on gender. Means the insurance isn't based on the person.

Suspect all they will do to get round this and age is to become far more reliant on experience and claim history for the individual.

All the best

Keith
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paulcdb
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was just reading this.

However I bet when it comes into force insurance for men won't go down as a result, insurance companies will jack up the prices for women but won't adjust the prices for men Rolling Eyes

Like everything, prices always go up at the slightest excuse but never come down if things go the other way.
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
about bloody time. It's proper sexist if you ask me. Hopefully premiums will drop a bit for the male drivers. Laughing I'm hoping mine will drop from 1200 down to 900 next year. If it doesnt drop I think I'll just cancel it. Laughing

Doing just 390 miles in 3-4 months. And to be paying 1200 a year to do that sort of silly low mileage is unfair.
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 10:21 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Age discrimination next then? Make sure everyone pays the same as a 17 year old, cos it's not fair if they don't?

Can't discriminate on where you live or what your job is or what kind of car you have either so shall we just charge everyone ten grand a year and be done with it?

Kickstart wrote:
That is the issue with basing a large part of the premium on gender. Means the insurance isn't based on the person.


17 year old newbies aside, have you tried changing gender on an insurance quote? I've never had it be worth more than £20. So it's not really a large part of the premium, it's just a marketing ploy to have these 'women-only' insurance companies and make you think it's some sort of mega-saving. Changing job usually has a much bigger impact, in my experience.
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
Age discrimination next then? Make sure everyone pays the same as a 17 year old, cos it's not fair if they don't?

Can't discriminate on where you live or what your job is or what kind of car you have either so shall we just charge everyone ten grand a year and be done with it?

Kickstart wrote:
That is the issue with basing a large part of the premium on gender. Means the insurance isn't based on the person.


17 year old newbies aside, have you tried changing gender on an insurance quote? I've never had it be worth more than £20. So it's not really a large part of the premium, it's just a marketing ploy to have these 'women-only' insurance companies and make you think it's some sort of mega-saving. Changing job usually has a much bigger impact, in my experience.



Changing gender on many quotes I got would've saved me in the range of about £450. Laughing
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 10:30 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
Age discrimination next then? Make sure everyone pays the same as a 17 year old, cos it's not fair if they don't?


They can easily still base it on experience and claims history. I expect the no claims bonus system will be heavily rejigged, probably with far less of a reduction for the first few years but far more of a reduction for the later years. Likely ending with a greater reduction on a larger premium.

With those just learning to drive the difference between male and female quotes is massive.

All the best

Keith
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12600284 - double the cost for the male twin in this article.
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Bendy
Mrs Sensible



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PostPosted: 10:53 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
mysterious_rider wrote:

Changing gender on many quotes I got would've saved me in the range of about £450. Laughing


How old are you? I did mention it makes a bigger difference when you're young, but that's for fairly obvious reasons.

Everyone's an idiot when they're a kid, but boys more than girls. If you don't accept this now, wait ten years and then you will. Laughing

Kickstart wrote:
They can easily still base it on experience and claims history.


Experience? How exactly? There's no way to prove what your experience is or is not, the only thing they know is how long you've had your licence and a vague stab in the dark at what you might have done in the past.

Plenty people insure a car and drive it 2 miles to the shops once a week. Other people drive all sorts of things all sorts of places in all sorts of conditions, and to the insurance company their history will look exactly the same. NCB is easy to fabricate if you're willing to take the chance.

Why doesn't my car insurance company go "Ah madam, I see you have ten years claim-free motorcycling. That suggests to us that you're going to be a pretty safe driver, so lets knock a bit off that premium. I know, its a terrible shame you arsed up your NCB by being an intermittent car owner for a few years and then going with a couple of companies where you lost some NCB because you changed vehicle and they couldn't insure the new one, so lets knock a bit more off for that... yes madam, you really should have 15 years NCB by now. Oh and a little bird tells us you went on a skid pan course a couple of years ago, well have another discount cos that clearly marks you out as someone who is actively interested in improving their driving. Is that a copy of 'Jackie Stewart's Principles Of Advanced Racing' I see on your shelf?"

Because they don't know. And if I tell them, I could be lying.

I don't see how you can base insurance on anything other than statisitical generalisations unless we start treating driving like flying and have logbooks recording our every journey, or psychological analysis to ascertain what our attitude to driving actually is. The statistics backup the fact that women have cheaper claims than men do, just like they back up the fact that you're more likely to have an accident in London than in Ullapool.

The statistics back up lots of other things that individuals consider to be bollocks (for example, if I'm completely honest about my job, I get shafted) but what's the alternative? 17 year old boys explode on a regular basis, middle-aged women dink their chelsea tractor in a carpark. Nurses make tiny claims, media-types make huge ones (apparently). How can it be based more on the person than that?

Ageism next then. That's gonna be fun.
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 10:56 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
mysterious_rider wrote:

Changing gender on many quotes I got would've saved me in the range of about £450. Laughing


How old are you? I did mention it makes a bigger difference when you're young, but that's for fairly obvious reasons.

Everyone's an idiot when they're a kid, but boys more than girls. If you don't accept this now, wait ten years and then you will. Laughing

Kickstart wrote:
They can easily still base it on experience and claims history.


Experience? How exactly? There's no way to prove what your experience is or is not, the only thing they know is how long you've had your licence and a vague stab in the dark at what you might have done in the past.

Plenty people insure a car and drive it 2 miles to the shops once a week. Other people drive all sorts of things all sorts of places in all sorts of conditions, and to the insurance company their history will look exactly the same. NCB is easy to fabricate if you're willing to take the chance.

Why doesn't my car insurance company go "Ah madam, I see you have ten years claim-free motorcycling. That suggests to us that you're going to be a pretty safe driver, so lets knock a bit off that premium. I know, its a terrible shame you arsed up your NCB by being an intermittent car owner for a few years and then going with a couple of companies where you lost some NCB because you changed vehicle and they couldn't insure the new one, so lets knock a bit more off for that... yes madam, you really should have 15 years NCB by now. Oh and a little bird tells us you went on a skid pan course a couple of years ago, well have another discount cos that clearly marks you out as someone who is actively interested in improving their driving. Is that a copy of 'Jackie Stewart's Principles Of Advanced Racing' I see on your shelf?"

Because they don't know. And if I tell them, I could be lying.

I don't see how you can base insurance on anything other than statisitical generalisations unless we start treating driving like flying and have logbooks recording our every journey, or psychological analysis to ascertain what our attitude to driving actually is. The statistics backup the fact that women have cheaper claims than men do, just like they back up the fact that you're more likely to have an accident in London than in Ullapool.

The statistics back up lots of other things that individuals consider to be bollocks (for example, if I'm completely honest about my job, I get shafted) but what's the alternative? 17 year old boys explode on a regular basis, middle-aged women dink their chelsea tractor in a carpark. Nurses make tiny claims, media-types make huge ones (apparently). How can it be based more on the person than that?

Ageism next then. That's gonna be fun.



I'm 19. Thing is women are supposed to be better drivers, well one instance, the young girl that has been driving a few months longer than i have was driving in the rain too fast round a corner, lost it, and smashed up the wishbone bit on her car. Safer drivers my arse Laughing
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Chalky.
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
As a man I am clearly better than women at everything, including driving.

But the statistics speak for themselves - men have more crashes than women.
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Bendy
Mrs Sensible



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PostPosted: 11:04 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
mysterious_rider wrote:
I'm 19. Thing is women are supposed to be better drivers, well one instance, the young girl that has been driving a few months longer than i have was driving in the rain too fast round a corner, lost it, and smashed up the wishbone bit on her car. Safer drivers my arse Laughing


Ah but it isn't that women are supposed to be better drivers. 'Safer' may get bandied about in advertising, and statistically it is probably true.

The actual truth is, women are *cheaper*. They have cheaper accidents - little knocks and bumps which fit into their general scheme of car use (driving to the shops and collecting the kids from school). They drive less mileage per year than men, and on different types of roads.


Statistics again. That doesn't fit the girl you know and it doesn't fit me. But it fits enough women for it to be a fair generalisation.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 11:05 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
mysterious_rider wrote:

I'm 19. Thing is women are supposed to be better drivers, well one instance, the young girl that has been driving a few months longer than i have was driving in the rain too fast round a corner, lost it, and smashed up the wishbone bit on her car. Safer drivers my arse Laughing

Well, I saw a poster with an NS125R in their avatar crash their bike badly.
Are they safe drivers that should be given cheap insurnace? Yea, right.

Generalisations are wonderful things, especially when based on a single example Wink.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:08 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
Experience? How exactly? There's no way to prove what your experience is or is not, the only thing they know is how long you've had your licence and a vague stab in the dark at what you might have done in the past.


Claim history and number of years no claims. Limits on mileage (and linked directly to the cars mileage, ignoring claims that X miles were done by someone else on their own insurance). If they only do 2 miles a year then fine.

However this change is also likely to have the opposite effect for medical insurance (womens medical costs are far higher) and pensions (women live longer).

Chalky. wrote:
As a man I am clearly better than women at everything, including driving.

But the statistics speak for themselves - men have more crashes than women.


Whether women are safer or not depends on what you count as safer. Women have more accidents than men per mile traveled. The ratio varies with age (womens accident rate ramps up with age at a lower age). However women tend to do a lower mileage (so less accidents), but are less likely to drive on the motorways (so more accidents per mile due to a greater number of miles being on more dangerous urban and A roads).

Bendy wrote:

Statistics again. That doesn't fit the girl you know and it doesn't fit me. But it fits enough women for it to be a fair generalisation.


Or not, and this will just force the insurance companies to do things properly rather than being lazy.

All the best

Keith
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Parp
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt that sex has any influence on home insurance. It certainly does on life insurance. Sex should only be used where it is shown to have an influence, such as car insurance.

This is Euro stupidity again. First they wanted me to straighten my banana, now they want me to get rid of it all together and be the same as a girl.
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

Claim history and number of years no claims. Limits on mileage (and linked directly to the cars mileage, ignoring claims that X miles were done by someone else on their own insurance). If they only do 2 miles a year then fine.


So paperwork and big brother.

If I was 17 and being shafted for thousands of pounds insurance, maybe I'd go for it - the kids with the tracking systems seem to think it's a fair swap. But I'm 33 and my insurance costs sod-all - I'll keep the system the way it is thanks. I don't want to have to inform APlan every time I let someone else take my car to the shops.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Throttled wrote:
Sex should only be used where it is shown to have an influence, such as car insurance.


Plenty of things where it has an influence (outside insurance) where it cannot be used. For example it would be very illegal to discriminate against a job candidate based on gender, yet for the employer the female candidate is going to be the one who possibly will want 6 months off to have a child (landing the company with substantial extra costs).

Is there any real difference between banning such discrimination in employment (which is pretty much accepted) and in insurance?

Bendy wrote:

So paperwork and big brother.


Paperwork and big brother stuff they already have and can do.

All the best

Keith
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 11:45 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

Paperwork and big brother stuff they already have and can do.


So would you willingly have a tracker fitted to your car, which monitors everything you do, just because you think the current insurance system is unfair?

I think it'll become the norm, in time, and I will certainly look back fondly on a time where I could throw a couple of hundred quid at an insurance company and drive about for a year doing the exact opposite of what their analysis thinks I will be.


Kickstart wrote:
For example it would be very illegal to discriminate against a job candidate based on gender, yet for the employer the female candidate is going to be the one who possibly will want 6 months off to have a child (landing the company with substantial extra costs).


With so many other factors involved in choosing an employee for a role, any employer who gets 'caught' discriminating on gender is an idiot. I don't agree with the maternity laws, I think it's ridiculous that a company has to pay for the time off for something that is a choice. I also think it's hideously unfair towards men. Women take the piss in the workplace, and I hate them for it. Equality should be just that.

Doesn't mean I don't want slightly cheaper car insurance cos I'm a statistically lower risk than my male doppelganger though. Mr. Green
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:04 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bendy wrote:
So would you willingly have a tracker fitted to your car, which monitors everything you do, just because you think the current insurance system is unfair?


I don't think anything like that is remotely required (and the whole idea seems to have died off now anyway as so few people went for it).

Bendy wrote:
Doesn't mean I don't want slightly cheaper car insurance cos I'm a statistically lower risk than my male doppelganger though. Mr. Green


Except statistically you probably are not a lower risk (being someone who happily drives in challenging conditions), just you happen to be grouped in with those who are a statistically lower risk because of what the insurance companies chose to take account of. Indeed statistically due to the industry you could be said to work in your are a high risk.

I am afraid that if gender equality is enforced in some areas where someone is going to have to ignore significant extra costs because of gender then I don't really see it as fair for other areas to be able to continue to take account of those costs to justify discrimination.

All the best

Keith
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jay12329
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Certain demographics, on the whole, take less risks.
30+, Married, children, home owner. All things that make you less of a risk to the insurance companies give you lower premiums.
They deal with all the claims, so they have the data to say which group is lower risk. Women have cheaper crashes in general then why can't they have lower premiums?

They have to base the premiums on something, so using the data they have loads of seams like the right way to do it. Young men may be driving a 500quid shed but its the 250k merc they take out when the roll the fiat Punto in sainsburys car park that costs the money! How many 30+ year old women get anywhere near wiping out a row of top end cars in their smart car?

This is just more proof we need to get rid of these do gooders in europe and make our own rules!

J
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Bendy
Mrs Sensible



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PostPosted: 12:23 - 01 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

I don't think anything like that is remotely required (and the whole idea seems to have died off now anyway as so few people went for it).


So how are you going to do it? As I already posted, I think 'experience' is extremely hard to quantify outside of the extremely general claim history and how long you've had your licence. Both are already a factor in your premium, do you think they should be the only factors?
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