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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 19 Mar 2011    Post subject: Engine electrics problems Reply with quote
Hi all
Ive put a kawa gpz500 lump into my quad but am stuck on the electrics.

Im keeping the original loom in the quad so need to connect the kawa cdi into it so ive cut the cdi off the kawa loom.

Ive found this diagram https://www.ex-500.com/wiki/images/b/bb/Ex500_UK_wiring_diagram.jpg and this is what ive worked out but still cant get any spark. IC Igniter wires left to right

1. Black yellow = ground/neg (ive connected this to the frame)

2. Green/white = tacho pulse sender??? ( i have no tacho so left this unconnected)

3. Black/white = neg terminal coil 1 (ive connected to neg terminal of coil 1)

4. green = neg terminal coil 2 (ive connected to neg terminal of coil 2)

5. black/purple = seems to be a pos feed from the starter switch (i don’t know what i should do with this? Can i just connect to a pos feed to get thing working??)

6. brown/white = i gather this is the mail pos feed from the ignition switch this feed also seems to power the coils?? (ive connected this to a pos feed along with the coils)

7. green/black = seems to be a connection to ground via side stand switch and clutch switch ect (ive left this unconnected as if the sidestand was up and clutch was in.)

8. grey = main feed from batt via key switch

9 & 10 yellow & black = Pickup (connected to pickup)

can anyone help me out with this please ive done everything ive said above but get no spark. Ive put a meter across the pick up and get a small reading when i turn the motor over so i think i can rule that out. I also have connected the coil to pos n frame and spark plug tip to frame and on disconnection i get a small spark. So it looks like ive either connected something wrong or the cdi i buggered???
Any help please its starting to get to me a bit!!
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 04:33 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
The starter interlock on those is a total nightmare to get your head round.

Try earthing the black on green as if the bike was in neutral. Everything ought to run if it thinks it's in neutral.

EDIT: Just to confirm, you have the correct CDI that came with the engine? There are two different GPZ500 engines. One has two pickups, the other has one.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
The starter interlock on those is a total nightmare to get your head round.

Try earthing the black on green as if the bike was in neutral. Everything ought to run if it thinks it's in neutral.

EDIT: Just to confirm, you have the correct CDI that came with the engine? There are two different GPZ500 engines. One has two pickups, the other has one.


Morning thanks for the reply, I have the later engine with the single pickup (D series I belive) it's out of a 2002 bike. I also have a 91 gpz with the two pickups and the cdi is different of that so I'm pretty sure I have the correct one.

Ok I'll try that today does everything else I've done look correct?
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si1986
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
what about the purple on black wire that looks like it joins the starter switch relay circuit. does this need a pos feed only when the starter motor is turning or have i got that wrong
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si1986
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Am I getting this correctly the coils should be connected to pos one side and the other to the IC Igniter. The igniter switches the neg side? It doesnt provide the coil with a switching pos feed? It's just the original coils on the quad are connected to earth and seem to get pos straight from cdi. I've re tried everything today and still no luck!!
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
si1986 wrote:
what about the purple on black wire that looks like it joins the starter switch relay circuit. does this need a pos feed only when the starter motor is turning or have i got that wrong


That's what it looks like to me too. I have no idea what it's supposed to do or why it's there.

It might actually be supposed to be connected an earth through the starter relay and safety interlock switch system when the starter is off in the same way as the headlight relay earths through the starter solenoid coil. Acting like a kind of double safety interlock.

It's all too weird and illogical for me to get my head round to be honest. I've actually fitted a CDI from one type of GPZ engine on another type in the past but I just connected everything to where it was supposed to go.

In any case. Logic dictates it's either supposed to have power fed into it when the starter motor is running OR it's supposed to be earthed when it's not, possibly with a slight resistance between it and earth. I think I'd check to see if there is a voltage at that wire. If there is, it's probably supposed to be earthed. I'd do it through a small resistor to be safe (most relay coils are around 60-80 ohms).

Hell, I still can't understand why the starter solenoid doesn't click when you turn the headlights on. Looks like it should do on the wiring diagram. Rolling Eyes
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
si1986 wrote:
Am I getting this correctly the coils should be connected to pos one side and the other to the IC Igniter. The igniter switches the neg side? It doesnt provide the coil with a switching pos feed? It's just the original coils on the quad are connected to earth and seem to get pos straight from cdi. I've re tried everything today and still no luck!!


Correct. The coils break down through the IC igniter, not power up through it. I think that's the difference between a CDI and an IC igniter? Not sure on that point but that's definately how they're wired.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
No pos feed from there so I guess it's pos feed in. I'm now starting to think it's the igniter. I tested the voltage from pos to the igniter coil wires and turned it over and get a small voltage reading then nothing. Surely I should be getting a switchin voltage as I turn the motor over. I'm going to get another igniter and see if I have any luck!
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si1986
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
I've actually fitted a CDI from one type of GPZ engine on another type in the past but I just connected everything to where it was supposed to go.


does that mean I ca go and get the cdi off my older engine and try that on this one?
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si1986
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quick update I've just put the igniter off the old bike on and get sparks now so it must be a problem with the other igniter. Unfortunately I can't use the old one as the new d series only has one pickup and it's designed for one wiv 2.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
si1986 wrote:
Quick update I've just put the igniter off the old bike on and get sparks now so it must be a problem with the other igniter. Unfortunately I can't use the old one as the new d series only has one pickup and it's designed for one wiv 2.


What about attaching the same pickup to both inputs?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
si1986 wrote:
Quick update I've just put the igniter off the old bike on and get sparks now so it must be a problem with the other igniter. Unfortunately I can't use the old one as the new d series only has one pickup and it's designed for one wiv 2.


What about attaching the same pickup to both inputs?


surley that would mean it would spark at both TDC and BDC on both cylinders.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 21:25 - 20 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
si1986 wrote:

surley that would mean it would spark at both TDC and BDC on both cylinders.


What does the single pickup version do?

EDIT: I ask because I don't know.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
si1986 wrote:

surley that would mean it would spark at both TDC and BDC on both cylinders.


What does the single pickup version do?

EDIT: I ask because I don't know.


Well I'm not exactly sure I just know that the old engine has two pickups opposite each other and the flywheel has 1 node that passed each pickup at the time it's respective piston is at tdc. The new engine has 1 pickup and the flywheel has 2 nodes opposite each other so I'm guessing the Igniter switches the spark from 1 coil to the other every time a node passes the pickup. Now because the old has a different pickup for each cylinder to use that on the new engine with one pickup means it would get a spark twice in 1 cylinders full stroke as the pickup has a node passes it twice.
This is what I've worked out and seems to be the way it works
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 01:51 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
si1986 wrote:


Well I'm not exactly sure I just know that the old engine has two pickups opposite each other and the flywheel has 1 node that passed each pickup at the time it's respective piston is at tdc. The new engine has 1 pickup and the flywheel has 2 nodes opposite each other so I'm guessing the Igniter switches the spark from 1 coil to the other every time a node passes the pickup. Now because the old has a different pickup for each cylinder to use that on the new engine with one pickup means it would get a spark twice in 1 cylinders full stroke as the pickup has a node passes it twice.
This is what I've worked out and seems to be the way it works


That's what I initially thought. Then I thought "How does it know which coil to send a spark to?" It's got one pickup with two wires and sends two pulses with every full revolution of the flywheel. I can't see how a single pickup coil with two wires can differentiate which of the two nodes triggered it.

It can't be that it just sparks alternately because then if I hit the kill switch while rolling along, it would have a 50:50 chance of starting to spark on the wrong pot when I turned it on again.

My conclusion was, that it must spark top and bottom of every piston stroke. If it doesn't. It's cleverer than it looks.

Incidentally. If you fit an new model rev counter to an old model engine. It under-reads by 50%. I know because I have done so. Implying the new engine produces twice as many pulses as the old one.

It's enough to give you a headache.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 08:16 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


That's what I initially thought. Then I thought "How does it know which coil to send a spark to?"


Morning. Agreed! I realised this after I posted the previous post but then seemed to remember seeing a 3rd node on the flywheel. The two nodes opposite each other are about 2" but the 3rd if my my memory serves me correctly is only about half an inch and is closer to one long node than the other, do you thing it uses the smaller pulse from that to work out where the flywheel is?
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anything is possible when you see how they went about wiring in the safety interlock system.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Anything is possible when you see how they went about wiring in the safety interlock system.


Ha, ure not wrong. Thanks for your help I'll let u know how it goes when I get the new igniter
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 20:01 - 21 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Anything is possible when you see how they went about wiring in the safety interlock system.


Ha, ure not wrong. Thanks for your help I'll let u know how it goes when I get the new igniter
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 25 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
New igniter cme today so I wired everything up and nothing I realised that the red on black cable has a 0.01v reading on my meter but makes no difference weather I connect to pos or neg. This really is starting to drill me I can't get my head around what's wrong???

Help please anyone!!! Smile
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si1986
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 25 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
ah i think i may have solved it! after more research on the net apparently you need a 100ohm resistor between pos and the grey wire. something to do with anti hotwire! its not on the diagrams for obvious resons. will go to maplin tomoz and get one and see what happens
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