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blito
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Redoko
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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 Posted: 21:07 - 24 Apr 2011  Post subject: Re: 2013-The end of the world is nigh? |
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| blito wrote: | Ok, maybe I'm being a little over dramatic in the thread title, but would somebody please take the time to explain the changes to bike licensing that are happening in 2013? I've read somewhere that the new rules could lead to end of unaccompanied L-platers. Also, if new motorbike riders are being restricted into BHP related categories then why aren't car drivers? All i can find through google on this is anti-government pressure-group propaganda (nothing new there then!) |
Short answer.... Nobody Knows.
3rd Directive is cast in EU Legislation. UK Gov't have failed to issue actual the bill to presented to parliment, to be passed into statute, for us to comply with 3rd directive.
Unsupervised L-Platers on 125's are not explicitly threatened. whats threatened is ability to take a bike test on a 125 and get a licence to ride a bigger bike. 3rd directive implies DAS stsyem, of testing on a bike of the type licence allows. AND three licences, 125, 500 and unlimited.
At the moment, political intent is to deal with the 'problem' of DAS candidates doing intensive coursed to get a licence, getting 600 super sport bikes and killing themselves on them. Hence stepped licence, with split at 500cc.
Next target will be the next biggest spike in stats which is unsupervised L-Platers.
As far as the CBT and unsupervised L-s system goes, there are no explicit 3rd directive regs to be complied with. Learners regulations come under local durestiction, so its not a requisite of 3rd directive to create a euro harmonised 'learner licence'/
HOWEVER.... the secondary safety spike of unsupervised L-Platers, could be 'considered' within the 3rd directive parliamentary bill.
Important elements of 3rd directive.
First, THREE licences.
- 125 'lightweight' licence
- 500 'middleweight' licence
- Unlimited, unrestricted licence.
These roughly equate to the existing A1, A2 and A groups of the existing licence system.
However at present, however, A1 is awarded for taking the tests on a bike of less than 120cc or less than 5?mph top speed. And restricts you to a bike thats essentially the same as currently 'Learner Legal' ie 125cc/14.5bhp, which you can ride on L's on CBT provided you dont use motorways of carry a pillion, hence few bother to take the test to allow them to ride no more than they are already permitted to.
A2 is awarded for tests being taken on a bike between 120 & 125cc <14.5bhp, and gains a full licence, with two year 33bhp 'restriction'.
The 3rd Directive, implies that to gain the 'new' 'A2' licence, it will HAVE to be taken, on a 500cc bike, as current DAS system., and having achieved it, that will be it. Thats your licence for ever, or until you take a higher test to get the A group to ride any bike.
THIS is where it gets curiouse.
At 17 you will still be able to ride a 125, BUT suggestion is you will have to be 19 before you can take the A2 test.
So at 17, you can have a 125 on L's and take the lightweight test, but that wont automatically upgrade, it will just give you full licence to ride Learner Legal.
at 19, you'll be able to take 500 test, but only on a 500 which you cant ride on the road unless supervised by an instructor as current DAS.
Two years after passing 500 test, again, on a bike over 500 you dont have liccence to ride unsupervised, you can train under supervision, as current DAs and take 'big bike' licence.
Job done.
DAS age will go up to 24, and there is a connundrum, over what DAs will be and whether you have to 'double DAS' to go from provisional straight to unrestricted licence, or if you will only be able to go from provisional to 500 licence...... if so, rather makes a nonsense of having DAs becouse in principle, anyone over 19 could do that....
UNLESS..... and here in lies the speculation.....
Recognising the futility of the current A1 licence qualifying anyone for a Learner Legal 125 they can ride on perpetual L's....... on repetative CBT's
THAT becomes the base point.
And instead of doing CBT, and being allowed to ride a 125 on L's, they do away with unsupervised L's per se, contrive a tougher CBT and upgrade it to test status for the 125 A2 licence....
In that way, only people on L's will be supervised, doing the 125 training (super CBT) or DAS style training for 500 or unrestricted licences.
The big spike of L-Plated 125 accident stats will dissapear...
And the two year steps, from 125 to 500 to unlimited will be more apparent, and the anmoly of having a DAS scheme that does no more than a normal test, will suddenly make sense, becouse to get the 500 licence, you will have to first do the 125 one... and wait two years to qualify to take 500 test....
HOWEVER this is ALL subjecture.... it is my suspicion that they might try and slip 'something' like that 'under the radar' in the 3rd directive bill..... but at the moment, we dont know.
We know what 3rd directive requirements are, and that they dont DIRECTLY effect current UK 125 Learner laws, BUT UK Govt have NOT published the bill to be presented to parliment, and if passed to become law.... we know what elements that bill will have to contain to meet 3rd directive requirements, but we dont know how they will explicity tackle those requirements. Nor do we know what else may or may not be in there changing current UK Learner regs to make 'sense' of 3rd directive requirements, like the CBT and unsupervised L's system.
In short, no one knows, what WILL be passed by parliment. We dont even know what will be in the bill that Parliment will get to see and vote on, or how that might get ammended after reading, before being passed.
And its a right bludger's muddle..... to which there is NO answer, its all up in the air..... but if you see which way the wind is blowing, and it looks like rain, good idea to get the washing in!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| blito |
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blito
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Posted: 21:29 - 24 Apr 2011  Post subject: |
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Thanks for that, Mike. Informative as ever 
I take it thenthat these new laws wouldn't stop someone with a pre-2001 car license from riding moped? I ask because this option is someting that still interests me as a possible solution to my communting needs. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 22:09 - 25 Apr 2011 Post subject: |
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3rd Directive licensing will commence on January 19th 2013.
Mike's post is tl;dr, so I'll just post my own interpretation of 2006/126/EC and what the DfT has let slip so far, which as Mike says, is not set in stone until they pass the legislation and instruments.
The new licence categories and the bikes required to sit the tests for them will be:
| Code: | Name Min age Max cc Max power Minimum test bike
AM 16 any 45kph any
A1 17 125 11kW 120-125cc 90kph+
A2 19 any 35kW[1] 400cc+ 25kW+
A 24[2] any any 600cc+ 40kW+
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[1] Direct access to A is 24, but you can sit new A 2 years after passing new A2.
[2] 35kW and not derived from a vehicle of over twice its power, i.e. 70kW.
AM, A1 and A are essentially the same license categories as they are at the moment - but the test bikes are different.
The biggest change is to the A2 test. Currently that can be sat at 17 on a 125 capable of 100kph, which gets you an A license with an endorsement restricting you to 25kW (33bhp) for 2 years at which point it automatically upgrades to full A.
New A2 can't be sat until 19, will require (effectively) a 500cc bike, and gets you a license restricted to 35kW (47bhp) which doesn't upgrade automatically.
The DfT has ruled out progressive access through training. To get a higher category, you will have to sit the full test for it, on an appropriate vehicle.
Note that full A can't be done until 24, up from 21. However, you can sit it 2 years after passing new A2, i.e. at 21 if you pass A2 at 19.
Unaccompanied L riding stays. It was explicitly considered in the DfT's 2010 consultation and they're keeping it[3]. Likewise, they considered but rejected allowing unaccompanied L riding on A2 and A class bikes with a lower class of license.
Now, some consequences:
From 17 to 19, you will only be able to ride a 125. Unless you want to take a pillion or go on the motorway, there will be absolutely no point in sitting the A1 test, any more than there is now. As a result, young riders will be dissuaded from doing any training beyond their CBT, just when they need it most. 
At 19 you can sit a new A2 test on a bike of at least 400cc and 25kW. Since "400" bikes are actually 396/398cc that effectively means a "500" bike. If the 35kW upper limit for A2 is also enforced then that means the GS500 and ... well, that's it. Any other "500"+ road bike made in the last decade is (or claims to be) over 35kW and so should be restricted.
When you finally get to sit full A, you'll have to find a bike of at least 600cc. Again, "600" bikes are slightly under 600 so if the DSA are strict then it'll have to be a "650": ER-6, SV650, Hyosung 650, Bandit 650 or similar.
[3] As a final thought, there's nothing in 2006/126/EC about "provisional" or "learner" riding. The UK's CBT is not a European license class and as far as European law is concerned, you shouldn't be riding a 125 unaccompanied without passing an A1 test.
I'm pretty sure that sooner or later some dead kid's parents are going to be told by an ambulance chaser that Little Dead Johnny shouldn't have been allowed out on the road without passing an A1 test, and we'll have a legal bun fight over L riding.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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tangledmonkey
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Berk
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 00:53 - 06 May 2011 Post subject: |
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| tangledmonkey wrote: | What would happen in my situation. I'm 20 now, so by the time this kicks in I'll be 22 turning 23 so I'll be under the age limit for a full licence, but will I be okay if I do my DA before then? |
Get your full licence before the legislation gets passed, and you have full licence.... whether 33bhp restricted A2 or full unrestricted A via DAS.
If you took A2, and were still on restriction when bill hit, that would cause niggles, but when restriction lapsed you'd have full A...
Only hic-up I can see in that is DVLA and if you send your licence off to change address or whatever, you get it back with 'new' A2 catagory, instead of A..... or if you exchanged licences for other EU equivilent... BUT arguable, so if in that situation, soon as you get your restricted licence come through PHOTO COPY it, and store it safe for reference!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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tangledmonkey
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kfc v lot
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 14:59 - 06 May 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Get your full licence before the legislation gets passed, and you have full licence.... whether 33bhp restricted A2 or full unrestricted A via DAS. |
Agreed, but a note: there is currently no such thing as an A2 license. Passing an A2 test gets you a proper A license, with a "<= 25kW" endorsement.
This is a Good Thing, as there's no way to accidentally confuse the current "A <= 25kW" with the future A2. Unless we keep calling the current "A <= 25kW" an A2 license, of course. 
I agree that there's a teeny tiny risk that the DVLA might try to downgrade any current "A <= 25kW" licenses to the future "A2" in 2013 - or even conceivably to future "A1", since the current A2 test is closer to the future A1 than the future A2 - but I think that it's vanishingly unlikely, if for no other reason than it would be hellishly confusing. As the previous sentence just demonstrated. 
That said, we're still waiting on the legislation, which is now pushing 4 months late.
Oh, and I lied a bit: the pre-2000 F650GS and the recent G650GS are both suitable for future 3rd Directive A2 tests and licenses. In the case of the new G650GS, it looks like it's been tuned to be exactly on the new 35kW limit. Smart move by BMW there.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 16:39 - 06 May 2011; edited 1 time in total |
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Nemo
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| Posted: 15:26 - 06 May 2011 Post subject: |
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I'm currently going through my restricted license, and if I pass, restriction will be up after this new crap passes.
I don't think it'll affect these licenses, only those done after a specified date, as with everything.
I'm more worried about the DVLA losing the license all together!! As is the case for quite a few people I know.
____________________
Previously owned: Kawasaki KH125, Suzuki GP125, Suzuki GX 125, Honda CB125 TDC '83, Honda ntv 600, Kawasaki ER5, Kawasaki ZZR600, Aprilia RSV 1000 Mille
Now own: Ducati 848 evo |
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Redoko
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kal9001
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Posted: 03:46 - 08 May 2011  Post subject: |
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Would be funny if they do Downgrade EVERYONE currently with an A-licence down tot he A1. unless you did DAS then they put you to A2. So everyone on bigger bikes all have to book tests in to ride again. Would be funny to see how long that waiting list would be  .
This issue alone should reassure people that it wont, And cant in any practical way affect any existing entitlements. it would be utter mayhem if it did.
On a side note to this, I believe they should implement this for cars too. Power and/or capacity restrictions for new and young drivers. The issue they are trying to combat with bike accidents also exists in cars, And in a car accident there is much more potential to kill or injure a 3rd party.
____________________
Anyone stupid enough to think we will drag a load of wooden horses full of soldiers into our city is certanley stupid enough to drag all of ours into theirs! |
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| Glenben92 |
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Glenben92
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| Posted: 15:55 - 08 May 2011 Post subject: |
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lozza
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Nemo
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| Posted: 13:20 - 09 May 2011 Post subject: |
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| Redoko wrote: | | Nemo wrote: | I'm currently going through my restricted license, and if I pass, restriction will be up after this new crap passes.
I don't think it'll affect these licenses, only those done after a specified date, as with everything.
I'm more worried about the DVLA losing the license all together!! As is the case for quite a few people I know. |
Doesn't matter if they lose it. If the coppers want your license they can wait till you actually have it. |
Noooo what I mean is them losing the entitlement.
____________________
Previously owned: Kawasaki KH125, Suzuki GP125, Suzuki GX 125, Honda CB125 TDC '83, Honda ntv 600, Kawasaki ER5, Kawasaki ZZR600, Aprilia RSV 1000 Mille
Now own: Ducati 848 evo |
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P.addy
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Redoko
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 15 years, 60 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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