A Honda cg bike with starting problems

[georgewells]

Hello fellow bikers, My grandson has a honda bike which is a cg.
I bought it for him a week ago as he has just obtained a licence to ride a bigger bike. The problem we are experiencing is that the bike takes many kicks of the starter to get it running, this can sometimes take ten minutes.
Once the bike has eventually started and warmed up it will kick start on a single small push of the kick start. I have been told the bike should start like that all the time as they are nothing of an engine, the garage also gave the bike a full service to eliminate a few factors but still it takes so long to start. could anyone tell me how to fix this. thank you in advance of any replies.
George.

[Nope.]

Have you changed the spark plug? If not, do so.

Get a meter across the battery and check it is putting out 12V or thereabouts.
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Former: Derbi GP1 50, Sachs XTC 125, Suzuki GSXR 400 GK73A, Kawasaki ZX7R, Suzuki DR250, Yamaha RD350
Current: 2011 Yamaha XT660Z Ténéré, 2003 Yamaha YZR-R1 5PW (In Build), 2009 Kawasaki ZZR1400

[N cee thirty]

how old is it?
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'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[georgewells]

Hello, the bike had a new spark plug, air filter and new oil with the service, i paid for a new battery as the man we bought the bike from said it was completely dead The service people also took off the fuel carboretter and cleaned it out with something. they took out all the petrol and cleared the petrol tank incase of water they said. But they had no further ideas on why the starting took so long. Our neighbour has suggested something to do with fuel and air mixing incorrectly but i have no idea about how this works. The bike is F registered. Thank You.

[N cee thirty]

its probably the igniton point breakers

get them replaced and get it timed up
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[sandman1976]

Yea after all that work i would have said points too

[georgewells]

Thank you for the replies, where would i find the points breakers and how do i replace them? Can i obtain these from the internet or would it be a shop? Thank You.

[N cee thirty]

you can get them off ebay for about £5

i would replace the condenser aswell which is bout £5 aswell

might be worth taking it to the garage to get them to time it up
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'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[georgewells]

Ok Thank You, my grandson is here so we are going to investigate it now. One last thing, the engine says cdi on one side of it does this refer to anything that can go wrong i.e is a cdi something special on the bike?
Thank You.

[Nope.]

CDI stands for Capacitive Discharge Ignition. Think of it like an ignition coil, but they dont have points meaning that it cant be that thats gone wrong (I could be wrong here mind).

Basically the CDI controls ignition timing. You no longer have/need a condenser or points system.

If the carb has been cleaned, the battery is good, the plugs are good, the filters are good and the oil is good then the only left that I can think of is the ignition coil which may well be built into the CDI depending on the design of the system.
____________________
Former: Derbi GP1 50, Sachs XTC 125, Suzuki GSXR 400 GK73A, Kawasaki ZX7R, Suzuki DR250, Yamaha RD350
Current: 2011 Yamaha XT660Z Ténéré, 2003 Yamaha YZR-R1 5PW (In Build), 2009 Kawasaki ZZR1400

[robocog]

Has he been in the habit of turning the fuel off at the tank after use?

I know I do this on my DR250 as a matter of precaution (just rebuilt the engine at much cost and hassle and will not be repeating that excercise any time soon)

On that bike I usually turn the fuel on a good 10 /15 mins before attempting to even bother to kick it over

On my other bikes I just leave the fuel taps on and they bark into life incredibly easily (never more than 2 kicks on the CG or a single momentary press of the starter on the GPZ)

Some bikes do indeed seem to require "the knack" to get going...My DR when the cam had eaten the head and the piston had almost gone oval it was a complete bitch to start, requiring at least 20 kicks before it would reward me with even a cough

as soon as I fixed its issues and rewarded it with a sump full of fresh oil it thanked me by starting first kick *when all I actually intended to do was prime the pump and lift some oil from the sump to my freshly built stupidly overpriced valve gear (see I knew I should have bought a tube of moly for the cam!)

After checking theres a good spark coming from a clean new spark plug, good compression in the cylinder and fuel coming through a sparkly clean carb - and set at a sensible RPM for tick over and breathing through a correctly oiled filter (or clean un oiled paper jobbie)
valves are easy to check and get the clearances in tolerance ...not sure if timing can be shuffled other than by way of worn parts on a CG?
also worth checking the oil does not smell of fuel.....
A leaky carb could make initial starting a pig and will do damage to the engine long term

If all the above checks out - all the ingredients should be there for a nice easy starting bike
(and it starting easy peasy after its first been started suggests things cannot be far out)

....maybe time to try a few different initial starting "methods"?

eg normal starting procedure should be - no throttle, just ignition on and a good healthy kick after finding TDC

variations in method being.

a few stabs of the throttle (if it has a pumper unit) before kicking
with a small amount of choke whilst kicking
without any choke or throttle
with small throttle openings
wide open throttle and a few initial kicks before attempting to go for a start

chances are that anything other than no throttle and just a healthy kick after TDC in this type of weather we seem to be blessed with does point to something not being quite dialled in on the machine...its just a case of finding a method the "startee" can do that overcomes the issue till its found and dialled in

Good luck

Regards
Rob
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Needs a bigger garage...

[N cee thirty]

hmm lol

somebodies been swapping engines and wiring looms then
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[georgewells]

Ok under the fuel tank we have a black cylinder with a thick lead to the spark plug and a box bolted just above the black cylinder. the flash of the spark plug is very bright and yes i have to admit the engine looks much cleaner than the rest of the bike

[N cee thirty]

cool

what i used to do on mine was before i started it,twist the throttle twise

then it fired up
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[georgewells]

Where is the TDC?

[N cee thirty]

he means the piston position

top dead centre
____________________
'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30 Mod 2 Passed 09/06/2011

Jewlio Iglesias wrote: I actually did vote BNP once

[finpos]

Hate to ask the obvious but have you found the choke on it (it is really quite well hidden)?

f.

[Nexus Icon]

[MattJ]

I was about to ask the same.

The temperature has dropped a bit recently, and when it first did it took me ages to get my CG going, just because I didn't realise how cold it was. When it's like this now I just put the choke on, start it and immediately take the choke off again and there are no problems.

Hate to sound patronising but I made the mistake of not using it a couple of weeks ago when it needed it.

[Frost]

TDC is the point at which the kick starter becomes firmer. Push or slowly but firmly to that point or just passed it. Then kick the starter down in one swift movement. Don't stamp on it, place your foot on it and push down throughout the stroke building up speed throughout.

If that doesn't work it might be flooded. Take the spark plug out and quickly kick the engine over a dozen times. stick the plug back in and try again.

I this weather you'll be wanting no choke and about 1/4 throttle when kicking it over.

You say you cleaned the carb, but was this just spraying some stuff in it? Or did you get the float bowl off, unscrew the jets and poke through the holes with something to make sure they're clear? I have very similar problems with a bike once that turned out to be a blocked pilot jet.

[robocog]

Some starting problems are worse than others

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g76IR9huOPk&feature=related

Less tiring ...but just as infuriating

Regards
Rob
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Needs a bigger garage...

[andys675]

common problem on CG's was that people were given the wrong spark plug, most of the old brazil jobs had DPR8EA-9 plugs, at a pinch a DR8ES will fit and work, but the P means a projected insulator and the 9 means 0.9mm plug gap, so a the spark has to jump that bit further and the end of the plug was further into the combustion chamber, so check you have the right plug!

[robocog]

what I'd do after checking stuff like compression/fuel float level and clear jets/passages in the carb

try to start it using whatever technique you are trying
If no go after say 1/2 a dozen kicks
Whip the plug out and see what the state of play is

Is it wet with fuel?
Is it bone dry and the bore doesn't whiff of fuel?
Is it contaminated with oil?

not starting easily could be too much or equally too little fuel
you will need to know which it is before being able to judge which "method" is likely to start it up easier

a few prods of the throttle before starting will encourage an extra ammount of fuel into the cylinder (if it has a pump mech)

cracking the throttle open slightly when kicking will allow more air and less fuel in

A wet plug will be reluctant to spark at all, and a sparking plug without a good fuel to air mix is just as unlikely to want to bark into life

lack of compression will make all the above redundant

when the engine is finally running I'd twiddle the fuel idle mix screw till its running as fast as it will (and turning it clockwise or anticlockwise a few degrees from that sweet spot makes the rpm drop)

Then adjust the idle RPM by ear till it sounds smooth and doesn't feel like its going to stall, and turn it up just a tad more
(No rev counter on either of my singles so its just done by ear...IIRC my DR is supposed to idle at 1200 ish RPM to give the oil pumps a chance)

then try to see what it starts like the next day and keep an eye on the spark plug colour

Regards
Rob
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Needs a bigger garage...

[69chris]

i may have missed it up there ^^ but has anyone suggested checking valve clearances yet ??

my gf's old cg was a complete arse to start from cold but fine from warm,
we gave it a new plug, oil, filters etc and no difference, checked the valves and the exhaust gap had closed up to nowt !!!

opened it up a tad and we were away...........well, she was but you know what i meant

[georgewells]

We have now had a neighbour who is quite experienced with bikes over to look at it and he says the engine is not the original engine but a newer one and it has cdi on it.
He mentioned the valves at the top of the engine but did not know how to set them if anyone can instruct us on how this is done he will have a go at it for me.
Thank You.