 |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
| RamonTR |
This post is not being displayed .
|
RamonTR
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
   |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| Fifteen15 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fifteen15
World Chat Champion
Joined: 25 Apr 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Andy_Pagin |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Andy_Pagin
World Chat Champion
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| waffles |
This post is not being displayed .
|
waffles
World Chat Champion
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Karma :
|
 Posted: 17:00 - 19 Aug 2011  Post subject: |
 |
|
I guess ideally the CBT is your first stepping stone to getting a full licence and you should carry on your training after it. 16/17 year olds usually never bother and therefore have no idea how roads work (like the kids on peds cutting me up when I had right of way without even looking  )
Although you get asked a couple of basic questions its nowhere near detailed enough, should be part of the requirement for completing your CBT IMO.
____________________
Theory test - 19/8/09, CBT - 11/10/09, MOD 1 - 16/8/10, MOD 2 - 27/10/10
Past rides Yamaha XT125X, Triumph TT600, Honda XR250
Current rides Suzuki GSXR 600, Honda MSX125 |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 17:47 - 19 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
I tend to agree; we let kids out on the most vulnerable road vehicle with absolutely minimal training. I did my CBT with a 17 year old who'd never driven or ridden anything on the road, including a pushbike, and he was lucky to make it back alive.
But be careful what you wish for. On a strict reading of 2006/126/EC (3rd Directive) there's no allowance in it for the UK's solo L riding. Strictly speaking, post 2013 new bikers should have to pass a full A1 test just to ride a 125, with no option to ride anything bigger until 19 (new A2) and then 21 (if you pass A2 at 19) or 24 (for DAS).
The last I heard from the DfT in 2010 was that they're planning to keep solo L riding, but they haven't published our implementation of the 3rd Directive yet, and I'm beginning to wonder.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 17:55 - 19 Aug 2011 Post subject: Re: No need passing theory for CBT? |
|
|
| RamonTR wrote: | I was touchy touchy cleaning mi bike and mi neighbour looked kinda interested in biking. Told him to get a CBT and a "lil bike" to start with. Asked me about the theory and told him no need passing theory and this is where he was puzzled.
I think his right... Even though going thorough the "basic training" why don't we have to sit the theory? I mean a 125 with L-plates can still do 70mph + and can use A roads and some dual carriageways. it sounds common sense about driving carefully so why is this ain't the case for car drivers who all have to pass the theory. Don't we share the same roads and road signs with them? aint it the biker who needs to know more about the rules and stuff to stay alert and cautious?
Perhaps incase of accidents we don't cause much damage to third party but for our lives sakes I think the theory should be made obligatory for the CBT. not sure why it aint but its so ironic IMO. Maybe we'll see some changes due 2013 EU regulations. |
Why can you ride a 125, unsupervised without passing ANY 'test' at all?
Its NOT actually in accordance with EU legislation; and for all DoT assurances the practice wont be banned by 3rd Directive laws in 2013, I doubt it will be allowed to perpetuate much longer than that.
ONLY reason you can ride unsupervised on L-'s is historical legacy of laws, from when it wasn't practicable to possible to supervise a Learner on a motorbike, and some means of letting them 'practice' before tests was needed.
These days, DAS rules have shown practical supervision via radio IS possible; hence the new testing laws that will make it basically mandatory to test on a full power bike as per current DAS system, you cant ride unsupervised, hence will HAVE to train DAS style under radio supervision, unless you go for a 125 only licence.
In short; reason you dont have to do 'Theory' before CBT is becouse CBT isn't a test, or riding qualification. As all other licences you have to do Theory before you can do practical test to gain 'full' licence, and it is riding on L's that is an anomalous curiosity permitted only by legacy laws.
So, shouldn't be 'why no Theory before CBT', but why unsupervised L-Plating, before ANY tests?
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| RamonTR |
This post is not being displayed .
|
RamonTR
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| RamonTR |
This post is not being displayed .
|
RamonTR
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Germ |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Germ
Trackday Trickster
Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 19:01 - 19 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
But bear in mind you can just hop in a car with any random muppet with a licence and be legal to drive with L plates.
As far as I'm aware you can only ride above 125cc if you're being trained by a qualified instructor.
Guess it's swings and roundabouts.
I rode a YB100 for 18 months before I went in for my tests (back in the very early 80's) with ZERO training other than what I'd given myself and passed theory and practical with flying colours.
I had a few low speed offs and a few ohshit moments on a 100 but I think I was a better rider for the experience.
Maybe I was just lucky or maybe being in the forces taught me something about disipline .....luckily it's mostly worn off now  |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| RamonTR |
This post is not being displayed .
|
RamonTR
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Karma :
|
| Posted: 20:15 - 19 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Germ wrote: | But bear in mind you can just hop in a car with any random muppet with a licence and be legal to drive with L plates.
As far as I'm aware you can only ride above 125cc if you're being trained by a qualified instructor.
Guess it's swings and roundabouts.
I rode a YB100 for 18 months before I went in for my tests (back in the very early 80's) with ZERO training other than what I'd given myself and passed theory and practical with flying colours.
I had a few low speed offs and a few ohshit moments on a 100 but I think I was a better rider for the experience.
Maybe I was just lucky or maybe being in the forces taught me something about disipline .....luckily it's mostly worn off now |
thats it bigman; its the experience not your age or low kW that's gonna make you live longer XD
____________________
All the best
Ramon |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Paulington |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Paulington
World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Karma :
|
Posted: 20:49 - 19 Aug 2011  Post subject: |
|
|
| RamonTR wrote: | I honestly believe CBT requires theory tests and the lawman has to concentrate on the experience factor - not the age or kW factor.
IMO a 19 year old with
- CBT + Theory
- 2 Years experience
- 125cc
is a better and a safer driver than a 21 year old with
- DAS
- No experience...
-1000cc
if you get my point... |
The problem is you are taking almost nothing in to account.
For example, a CBT with theory is VERY minimal training and once you have that and ride on the road for two years you will pick up very bad habits that will put you in excess danger. Whereas with a DAS it's very intensive and much more in-depth so you learn a lot more and have very little bad habits once you've passed.
Secondly, there is a big difference in maturity from 19 to 21 for some people. That makes a difference.
Thirdly, you have just said "no experience", what qualifies as "no experience"? The person who just took their DAS could well have passed their driving test on their 17th birthday and been driving on the road for four years which is (depending on mileage etc) greater experience than two years after being taught very minimal skills.
Basically, the Government have a VERY hard job generalising a whole population and to do that effectively they have to use the worst case scenario. Sure some people at 19 are better riders than a 21 year old who just passed his DAS but the majority won't be, this means they have to treat it as so.
If they didn't, yes, the ones who are good riders will get bigger bikes/more freedom etc earlier but the majority who are not good riders would have access to motorcycles that they cannot control which is very dangerous.
For example, me. I'm 18, passed his motorcycle test 22.5 months ago but I am still restricted, even though I am currently a member of the IAM and studying for my RoSPA, hoping to get up to Gold. So, on paper I am a better rider than someone who just passed their DAS but not everyone is and you always have to account for the worst case scenario.
Your time will come soon, and sooner than you think! Two years isn't really that bad.
I would like to see something implemented though, say something along the lines of if you are a restricted (A2) motorcycle licence holder and you pass your IAM ride on the bike that your restriction could be lifted as you have proved your ability to ride a motorcycle far beyond test standard. However this will never happen.
____________________
"Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 22:40 - 19 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Paulington wrote: | Basically, the Government have a VERY hard job generalising a whole population and to do that effectively they have to use the worst case scenario. Sure some people at 19 are better riders than a 21 year old who just passed his DAS but the majority won't be, this means they have to treat it as so. |
The simplest recourse they have would be to simply 'ban' motorcycles from the public road, and believe me there is a very significant pool of influence in Whitehall that actually would LIKE to...... faced with a political hot potato though, they are merely happy to make whatever draconian legislation they can get away with to make motorcycles as unattractive and as much hassle as they can.
And, you know.... for all I love biking, there are times so MANY motorcyclists fight fire with fucking gasoline, when it comes to fighting their proposals.... I'm tempted to side with them!
An am NOT a bearded pipe smoking, real ale sipping, belstaff wearing BMW riding BMF 'yay-sayer' going along with everything the gov't offer.... which is how that particular organisation presented itself, ULTRA Conservative thirty years ago.
Prompting in counter point, the creation of MAG by denim wearing, chop riding, monosyllabic 'apes' with a chip on their shoulder...... about being made to wear a crash helmet... to which steriotype I dont conform either!
But I agree with both on a lot of things, and it's interesting to note how they have converged over the years.......
The 3rd Directive stepped licence laws, are like many over the years, a 'good idea' fucked up by beurocrats.
Mid sixties Whitehall decided bikers needed 'saving from themselves', revising the licencing system and first introducing both the 250 learner limit, and the L-Plate rules.
Before that, you bought a bike, and rode it... actually taking a test was pretty much optional!
Next came the compulsary helmet laws, because too many yoofs were getting on bikes and bashing their heads on lamp posts.
Followed by the moped law, dropping car driving age from 18 to 17, raising motorbike from 16 to 17 and offering 16 year-olds 50's in recompense, in 1973.
Four years later, after a mockery of the moped law being made by the 'Fizzie' and 'AP50P', and other more exotic 'Super-Peds', highly tuned 50cc motorbikes capable of 50ish miles an hour, with legislation beating pedals.... in 1977 they revised the Construction & Use regs for mopeds, dropping the requirement for them to be able to drive the back wheel with pedals, but imposing strict 3.5bhp power limit and 35mph top speed.
1982, they attempted to address two flaws in the motorcycle learner laws; first the 'problem' of High-Performance 250's from Japan.
In the 1960's when the 250 limit was conceived, typical 250, was something like a BSA C15; single cylinder four stroke with performance about equivilent to a modern YBR125, but about ten times as heavy! There were a few 'exotics', Areal Arrow, was quite a respectable two stroke twin, sports bike, but even that only chucked out about 15bhp as standard and could just about do 70mph. More inspiring was something like a Ducati 250 Desmo. Made something over 20bhp and could do a tad over 80.... but imported in small numbers these things were bludy expensive and very rare.
Remember at that time, the UK had very few miles of motorway, and they were only 'just' thinking of introducing a national speed limit......
'Big-Bikes' of the era were 500's and 650's. There were a few litre bikes about, Areal Square four, a staid gentlemants tourer, and 'THE' Vincent... an exotic expensive enthusiasts machine.
The 'Ton up' Lads were riding 'big twins', Meriden built Triumph Bonavilles, or more often tuned up Trophies; Norton's and Enfields, bikes that 'could' just about top a ton, on the 'new' bypasses.
During the 70's though, collapse of the mighty BSA corporation saw the british bike industry fall into chaos and decay; and the gap filled by the 'upstarts' from Japan, offering high-performance two stroke machinary..... which usually smaller in capacity than similar performance four strokes, put an awful lot of rapid bikes in reach of the average L-Plater, in the under 250 catagory.
By the late 70's the air cooled two stroke-twins from Suzuki and Yamaha, were challenging the performance of 'the big boys' and L-platers were tearing about on RD250's or X7's that could genuinely top 90mph, on skinny tyres and terribly under developed and even more under damped suspension... and hurting themselves very badly.
Problem probably wasn't as bad as in the days of the Cafe Racer and the ton up boys, when they could step straight onto a 'bonnie' and go that kind of speed no test or qualification, because in those days few could actually afford to.....
Problem was actually brought about NOT so much by the notion that the Jap 2-smokes were THAT fast or furiouse, OR that they were THAT cheap, or THAT prevelent.... they weren't.....
Two 'social factors' were far more significant..... Back in the 50's and early 60's, if you left school at 16, and started work, you got put on 'aprentice rates', and were paid peanuts, compared to chap working along side you, doing the same job, who was in his 40's.
And if you, young wipper snapper, wanted motorbike; y'better start savin y'weigiz, lad! Becouse high purchase tax meant high showroom prices relative to income; most people paid cash after saving up for stuff, and if you DID want to buy anything on credit, you dealt with the local loan shark, who chared 100$ interest a year, or went to the bank, who expected you to be over 21, show stable employement for five years, and enough 'savings' to put down a 50% deposit.... That changed in the 60's & 70's with both employement regulation increasing youth wages, and relaxing credit regulations.....
So, buy the late 70's you could, and I remember the adverts; "£99 Down, Ride away! All you need including the hat and jacket, for £8 a week! (Leaving you enough for nearly 2 gallons of petrol, that'll get you over a hundred and fifty miles, from a tenner!)"
So where credit and employement regulation kept youths in check and off ton up bonavilles in the 60's... by the late 70's they were NOT keeping lads of Suzuki X7's or RD250's, and they were starting to seriousely scare the ton, straight out the show room, and were comparitively FAR too easy to super tune once you got one home.
Second thing giving cause for concern, was the phenominon of perpetual plating; riding around for ever, on a 250, never taking a test. Lots of people did it, and with bikes 'as good' as the old 'big twins' in the 250 catagory, it was making a mokery of the licence laws, and back to the days before 'real' licences when you could just about buy any bike, and ride it.....
SO, 1982, they introduced the '125-laws' and went a bit over board, having been so far behind what was going on on the street in previouse rounds over the prior twenty years!
Bullied through parliment, in Thatcher's first term, as she was making a name for herself as 'The Iron Lady'; there was NO ARGUMENT.....
Learners would be restricted to 12.5bhp machines of no more than 125cc, imposing a performance cap even lower than that of an 'old' BSA C15, and punitively denying learners from bikes that had the capacity to have flexible power delivery and the weight to be nice and comfy and stable......
More, if Bikers didn't pass a driving test within two years, they lost provisional motorcycle entitlement for at least a year, to stop people perpetually riding without taking a test.
Ironically they capitualated and left a loop hole for provional entitlement provided by full licences for other groups... so if you passed a car test, you could ride forever on a 125, on L's again!
This system.... good in intent, bludy dire in execution..... was then hacked and adapted in variouse 'waves' over the next fifteen years to become what we have now.
When first introduced, 125 learner laws also saw introduction of the 'Part 1' test; an 'off-road' test of machine handling, much like modern Mod 1, you DIDN'T have to do before you road on the road, but did have to do before you took the full practical.
That was thgen 'evolved' into the modern CBT, an 'improvement' the BMF actually worked very hard to get... which made it compulsary to get some off road training before you were let loose on the roads on your own.....
And shortly after, we got the 'persuit' test, with examiners following test candidates around in a car or on a motorbike, rather than standing on street corners.
Then we got afew more tweeks and the DAS scheme.... another good idea fucked up.
Get the idea here? Lots of good ideas in principle, fucked up by beurocrats!
3rd Directive laws, idea of a stepped licence system; great idea. HOW riding a 100Kg, 10bhp, 65mph 125 is in any way indicative of your ability to control, potentially a 170+mph, 140+bhp, 250+Kg 'mega-bike' is uttlerly rediculouse.
So, splitting motorbikes in to three catagories; lightweight, Middleweight, & Heavyweight, makes a lot of sense.
Actually defining those catagories is a rather tougher task..... weight? Power? Performance, how do you do it? Kawasaki ZX6R is a very different animal to say a BMW R100, but one would be in the heavyweight legue by dint of capacity and weight, irrespective of the fact it has less power and an awful lot less performance and is a heck of a lot easier to ride than the othger, that would fall in the middleweight bracket by capacity, and possibly even the lightweight bracket by mass!
Then we get to the ideas of age limits, or how to 'progress' people by experience......
Which they have UTTERLY fucked up..... lifting DAS age to 24 just means more younger people are going to be pissing about perpetually on L-Plates learning how to thrash little bikes everhwere, ALL the time to get anwhere, NOT taking tests, becouse they will be expensive, and DAS style, to get anything more than a 125 licence to ride a bike they can already have, withg no test what so ever on L's........ until they turn 24, can do a wun-week-wundser course, get thier licence and jump STRAIGHT on to whatever they like, most likely a sporty 6, and ride it like they have the last eight years thier Yamaha R125 or whatever, with the taps wide open.....
BUT, as said, how DO you do it?
Only REAL way to catych-all, would be to impliment a system based on a few forrign models used over the years, significantly the Japanese system, where 'licencing' was for a while part annual MOT, part paying your road tax, part doing a bike test! And when you bought a bike, you had something like a month to 'register' it in your name, and as part of registration, had to do a riding test to prove you could actually ride THAT bike, you wanted to register......
Good idea.... get an R1... prove you can ride it sensibly..... get a Gold wing, prove you can hold the bugger up, etc.... and in Japan IT? WORKED..... they kept the test reasonably simple, and did ot out of existing offices, very efficiently... the Nips being very good at that kind of thing, and they are also pretty good at accepting both authority and beurocracy....
In the UK? Nope! Could you imagine, trying to get every oine to agree, here, that if you bought a bike, you went to your local police station, filled in a registration form, paid a fee, and then had a policeman come and watch you ride around teh carpark, for five minutes, then took you out on the road for twenty, and if they were happy, signing one form, you took back to the counter,m whewre a clarke process it, gives you a reciept and in ten days time, you got your 'licence' through the post, stating you were qulified to ride THAT bike, and had paid the road tax on ity for the next three years?!?!
Nope. Home Office? DVLA; HM Customs & EXcise: DSA... all would be in uproar! make too many civil servants UB40 holders! They'd have to hire a third of them back JUST to ptocess the benefit claims for the rest! And then another third to administer the 'loing term fundementally unemployable' sceme for what would be left!
And THAT is the ultimate 'problem', there is no such thing as a perfect system; and when you get a beurocrat involved, they will do ALL they can to fuck up a near perfect system, becouse to them, users should serve the system, not the other way around!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| RamonTR |
This post is not being displayed .
|
RamonTR
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Karma :
|
| Posted: 02:00 - 20 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Paulington wrote: |
Thirdly, you have just said "no experience", what qualifies as "no experience"? The person who just took their DAS could well have passed their driving test on their 17th birthday and been driving on the road for four years which is (depending on mileage etc) greater experience than two years after being taught very minimal skills.
|
i gave it as an example; a 21 year old who has no experience in biking at all but thanks to bullcrap law he can do the DAS and next day sit on an R1. Surely, 19 year old with CBT, two years experience on a 125 would make a better and safer rider than him -. no doubts.
as to talk about "bad habits". not sure what you mean but everyone of us have some. when we first took our CBT's and mod 1 & 2's perhaps we didnt get 50% of what was actually being said and told by instructors, we just wanted to get get the licence. Personaly, when i was told about lookin where you want to go, counter steer, four fingers on clutch & brake didnt make much sense/difference at the time .....but when i got mi bike - unsupervised then I clocked what it all meant -...through personal experience.
Theory test must be obligatory for CBT so at least they'd know about road positioning, lanes, safety checks, pillion, brakin distance etc so they are acknowledged but its up to you how u want to ride so bad habit doesn't rely on the training you get, depends on how u actually want to ride.
____________________
All the best
Ramon |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Wibbler |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Wibbler
Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 11:48 - 20 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Paulington wrote: | with a DAS it's very intensive and much more in-depth |
DAS refers primarily to the test. There is no requirement to have had any training before sitting your tests on an category A bike.
Given that there are training schools offering 3 day DAS courses, CBT to tests, I'd question the suggestion that you'll inevitably get "in-depth" training in preparation for a DAS test. You'd get trained to the test, and nothing more.
Consider that pass rate for Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests are significantly higher than for car tests, while motorcycle KSIs have now reached 30 times the rate for cars per mile, and that all current "entry level" bikes will reach 60mph in under 4 seconds and have top speeds from 123mph (SV650S) to 140mph (CBF600).
Something's not right here, and if I were a non-biking politician, I'd be asking what I needed to do to protect those mental bikers from their own incompetence and hubris. The 3rd Directive really is well intentioned, it's just looking likely that we're going to nob it up in practice.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 15 years, 61 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.20 Sec - Server Load: 0.72 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 114.16 Kb
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating