Help and advice please

[billyJo]

Hi
Im new on this site, so hope ive posted in the right place.
I would like to ask for everyones opinion, if you would be so kind, here goes.. (sorry in advance for the long post)

we bought my son a Lexmoto Tornado 50cc, 10 plate moped last year for his 16th birthday to get him from A to B. (i have since been told we perhaps should of bought another make, but at the time thought this bike would be fine for 12 -18 months until he was old enough for driving lessons) .... anyway, ive lost count of how many times it went back to the dealer, under warranty and had 2 carburettors fitted as well as other various work carried out, only to be told it was sorted and after a few weeks or so would have other problems, it always went back for servicing etc.

In May it let him down again and we had it recovered and taken to the dealer, the warranty had expired and i paid a £240 bill , this covered another carburettor, new starter solenoid, new front wheel, new front brakes, new speedo drive and cable. We accepted the wheel, as we live out in the sticks and the lanes are terrible for potholes!!
After paying the bill i was told the bike was beyound economical repair!! and a death trap!!!
We had to get the bike home, as it couldnt stay at the garage, so i followed my son home, i was really frightened, after being told this, and on the way back from the garage my son went round an island and the seat slipped, broke the hinge and nearly fetched him off, so its also had a new seat case thing.
Basically the dealer doesnt want to know, his attitude is terrible, to say the least and i really dont want to deal with him again. He even slammed the phone down on my husband.

A friend looked at the scooter for us, as he has a lot of knowledge and its now had new engine bushes and mount (think thats what its called) new rear shocks and bushes,(as he said the bike wasnt even in line, and not safe) a new head gasket. It worked for another week or so and has gone again. So replaced the starter motor, has also had a new air filter, throttle cable and still wont start.

We really dont know what to do. Its being recovered tomorrow to be taken to a different garage, but with all the money spent on it we are already out of pocket, with what the bike woud be worth.

I cant believe a brand new bike has been such a complete waste of money and its not even due an MOT!!!

would love your thoughts, i feel these bikes are imported and some one should be responsible, but who? The garage blames my son. I did admit he could of probably washed it more, the fella at the garage said he should be checking the nuts/bolts etc.

As far as the bike being used, its took him (when its worked) backwards and forwards to school (probably about 3 mile) the furthest hes ever gone on it is about 7 mile.

Someone said the other day 'sell it for scrap' Its heart breaking, when you see a 10 plate bike, all the money my husband keeps throwing at it, my sons disappointment and fear, after its cut out going around an island, the phone calls saying its gone again.

Please let me know your thoughts, dont know what/who else to contact

Jo

[MickC]

Don't spend anymore money on it. Its going to be cheaper to buy him a second hand bike than constantly paying out for repairs. As far as i know the make is chinese and rubbish as all there bikes are (cheaply made and not put together right). If you can, sell it and buy him a Japanese or European made bike that you know will conform to all safety standards.
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XX XXXx
Previous: CG125,XS250 (converted to 400),Z250A, GPZ550, Norton Commando, XS500, 78 Laverda Jota, GPZ1100,Harris bonneville, XV750 (mono shock),TR1

[billyJo]

Thanks MickC for your reply.

We had said about trying to sell and get another one, dont think anyone would buy though, after i keep getting the same response, about the make of bike, from friends of friends etc.

Ive since found out that my sons friend has the same make of bike, but next model up?? and everytime he fills it with fuel he has to do something with a pipe (sorry not very up on these things) to stop the fuel getting into somewhere it shouldnt, otherwise his bike wont go!!

With hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, we should of stayed clear, but the dealer, as you can imagine, was wonderful at the time and really 'sold' the bike to us. I feel these bikes shouldnt be imported!!

Jo

[Robby]

They are notoriously bad. The dealers are crap, and grumpy from carrying out constant warranty work.

Don't spend any more on it. It will never be fixed, the parts are of terrible quality in the first place. You might be able to sell it, don't expect to get anything like good money for it.

Next time buy something from a manufacturer that you have heard of. If your son is 17, its time for a geared 125.

[MarJay]

Its not really a surprise to any of us that a bike you've never heard of, made in china breaks a lot.

Sadly, the dealers are just fly by night crate importers who have no real knowledge or sway with the manufacturers. All they can do is try to respond to their own meagre warranty and replace poor quality parts with more poor quality parts.

I'm afraid you've got two options here:

Sell it and buy a Japanese or european bike.

or

Scrap it and buy a Japanese or european bike.

At least you'll get real backup with decent quality spares and someone who knows how the bikes are put together. You do get the odd member of this forum who claims that they are not that bad and that it won't take long and they'll be taking over the Japanese bike manufacturers... but get this: The Chinese have a law that means only the best quality bikes get exported. Just imagine the crap they have to put up with in the domestic market! For every "Oh its not so bad" story I've heard, I've heard ten stories of them being so poorly built as to be dangerous. I've even heard a couple of stories about snapping frames and the like.

Sadly I'm afraid you might just have to chalk this one up to experience; Never buy a chinese bike.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Nope.]

Everything everyone above has said is true.

The best thing you can do with it is put it on ebay. You'll likely get less then £100 for it but its something. More then a scrappy will give you anyway.

They are unsafe, if you ever look at the welds on one compared to the welds on a european bike you would be shocked. They're more like tack welds then actual welds!

Get rid of it ASAP and get your son a geared 125 thats NOT chinese! Yamaha, Suzuki, kawasaki, Honda, Aprillia, Derbi, Piaggio are all good makes and will last you years and years. There is plenty available on the second hand market for reasonable prices and the great thing about learner legal 125's is that they retain there second hand market value so your unlikely to loose money on a popular model.
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Former: Derbi GP1 50, Sachs XTC 125, Suzuki GSXR 400 GK73A, Kawasaki ZX7R, Suzuki DR250, Yamaha RD350
Current: 2011 Yamaha XT660Z Ténéré, 2003 Yamaha YZR-R1 5PW (In Build), 2009 Kawasaki ZZR1400

[G]

I think you might have some rights under the general 'fit for purpose sold' kinda acts - if you edit your post subject to better describe the issues, you might attract the attention of multijoy, who is very knowledgeable on such things .

As for the bike, yes, it's junk basically. If you can't get them to take to take it back, get rid of it in what ever way appeals to you ethically!

[chris-red]

Buying him a second hand bike from a well known manufacturer will be better, safer and cheaper. These bikes are deathtraps.
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Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
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[billyJo]

Thank you so much for your replies.

Although i think i knew what the replies would be my heart sank!! I cant believe how much i am hearing they are death traps, and cant believe that people havent complained about them before, and yet they are still imported. (the fella from the breakdown service we pay for, said, in his opinion, its only fit for spares and repairs) Ive contacted Trading Standards, but have yet to hear back from them.

CHRIS-RED, by 'edit my post' i think you mean cut out all the waffle and moaning and just list the problems, which i will do in another post, thanks.

I think i will try and research 'fit for purpose' kind of acts and see how i get on, even if it stops others being took for a ride, with dealers who are so nice until they take your money!!

COMPUTID, thanks for the names, we have been looking at other 2nd hand bikes. i also phoned for a quote on car insurance, as his second option, £3950 was the cheapest!!!

Wish i had found this forum before we bought the bike,, Then again i wish you could buy 'hindsight'

thanks again, if i get any interesting updates i'll let you all know

Jo

[MarJay]

[G]

People do complain.
However there are so many different brands that even if one is stopped from being brought in, it won't make any difference.

Most of the operations that bring them in are pretty small, so even if they are closed down, won't make much difference.

The scary thing is, from what a Chinese person on another forum said a few years ago - that it seems we get the good ones, with the even more questionable quality ones not actually being allowed to be exported from China for fear it will give them a bad reputation .

[chris-red]

[Teflon-Mike]

Reason they can sell 'death traps' like this, and where the root of the problem lies is in the fact that they are NOT brought into the country as road going motorcycles, and they aren't 'technically' sold as such.

If you buy a car from Ford; you look at it; looks like a car; feels like a car it IS a car; and sold to you, upfront, dealer registered, all taxes paid, pre delivery inspected, with a warranty as a 'road going car' on the motor industry data-base as having met all relevant construction and use regulations, safety tests and such, it IS a car, and can 'reasonably' under law be expected to be 'fit for purpose' doing what you expect a 'car' to do.

Ditto, if you buy a bike from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Triumph, Aprillia, Cagiva, BMW, etc....

The bikes, supplied from 'official' franchise dealers, sold 'as new' are all on the Motor Industry Data-base, and recognised AS road going vehicles built for that purpose, tested and warranted as 'fit for purpose'.

And people that buy them, normally have little or no problems with them during their normal service life.

Now; lets talk 'klit cars'; rules and regs get a bit complicated here; and these days are an utter nightmare; so more knowledgeable folk, please excuse GROSS simplification!

Few years ago, you could buy from Westfield, or other's a complete 'DIY' build your own Lotus 7 'Sports-car'. You got a body, a chassis an engine, axles, lots of nuts and bolts and 'stuff' and bearded blokes with more time on their hands than common sense, could go hide in their garage for months on end, fiddling with spanners, until they had built thier own car. More interesting than fishing, I suppose!

Other 'kits' you got no more than a body and a chassis, and maybe a few other 'bits' and you would buy an old rotten Ford Escort you'd get your engine, gearbox and back axle from, then you'd go hunting round scrap yards for motorbike headlamps and Triumph herald front suspension and 'stuff' to finish it off.

With that kind of 'scrap' build kit; you could register it as the 'donor' MOT failed Ford Escort you robbed most of the parts from; because that was 'mostly' what it was. (you cant these days you have to go through a re-registration process; but this is the 'idea)

With a completely 'new' kit; though, you had no 'donor' to take registration from, so you HAD to apply for a new registration, and using all new parts, it IS to all extents and purposes a brand new vehicle, eligible for a brand new registration number...

ONLY its NOT a recognised 'new' car from any existing manufacturer, and its not on the Motor Industry Data-base.

SO... you have to 'Self Register'... means filling in some forms and paying some money to DVLA to get a log book, but with receipts to prove its 'all new' and you aren't trying to pass of an old scrapper as a brand new car, but you can register your 'self built' vehicle.

AND there are a few 'loop-holes' under self registration; one of them being than new vehicle duty isn't applicable, also, the requirement for expensive destructive 'safety' testing on umpety hundred examples, as you would only have one., and NOT really want to smash it into a concrete block!

Same 'sort' of loopholes exist for 'self built' motorcycles, and If I started with a brand new frame from some-one like Spondon, and a brand new engine from some-one like Triumph, and some fancy wheels from Dymag, and a load of bits and pieces off e-bay or out of catalogues, I could build my own complete motorbike, and then 'self register' it, and get brand new, latest year registration number for it.

Showing reciepts, with VAT paid for all the 'parts' would gain brand new registration, and be exempt new vehicle duty, and a lot of 'type testing'.

Can you see where I'm going?

A lot of these Chinese Scooters and motorbikes are brought into the country not as 'motor-vehicles' subject to quite a high import duty, but 'motorcycle parts'... 'knocked down' from a complete machine to large sub assemblies that have to be bolted together to make a bike or scooter

Whole-salers then flog these things to the Dealers... and they then advertise them.

BUT when you BUY them, you dont buy a working functional motorcycle, you buy, a 'kit of motorcycle parts'....

They drop it on your doorstep; and you open the box; find the instructions, and like an ikea flat-pack wardrobe, have top put the front forks on, fit the handlebars, plumb in the petrol tank and plug in the lights.....

Flat pack! Its like getting a chip-board 'childs bedroom set' with cabbin bed, desk, wardrobe, and bedside table, all for £75 out of the Argos Catalogue, rather than going down to the local furnature shop and buying a bed, for £200 that some -one delivers, carries up to your kids bed-room, and assembles for you.

What you then have is a 'self built' motorcycle, and with your receipt from the dealer... YOU can 'Self register' it......

You didn't do that?

So! working a flanker...... the Dealer doe it all FOR you. Nothing to say that YOU have to be the one to twiddle the spanners... you can pay a mechanic to do it for you... and 'you' don't have to fill out the paperwork to 'Self Register' you can get a 'registration consultant' to do it for you.... all you have to do is sign it.....

Check the invoice, and in all liklihood, you will find that what is itemised, or is 'implied' if its not explicitly stated is;
the Dealer sold you a 'self assembly motorcycle kit',
two hours workshop time for his mechanic to follow instructions in the box on your behalf;
and HE filled in the self registration forms on your behalf for you to sign... and he even popped them in the post for you for free!

ALL getting 'around' the heavy legislation and duties and taxes, assiciated with a 'propper' road vehicle, to keep the costs as low as they do.

THIS is how they 'can get away with it'.... and what makes it such a pain for Trading Standards to do much about it.

YOU nievely believe you have got a real bargain, buying a brand new 'scooter' for £500 when a Peugot or a Yamaha is three or four times that price.....

THEN wonder why it is shit!

Becouse unlike a Yamaha or Peugot you DID NOT buy a 'scooter'... you bought a cheap and nasty chinese made mechano kit!

It IS a con.... but, when you pay that little money for something, so OBVIOUSELY so 'Cheap' you HAVE to ask 'WHY' is it that cheap?

And if you'd checked the 'net before diving in and buying one of these things, rather than after it had all gone pair shaped, it wouldn't have taken five seconds to get some clue as to why these bikes are so cheap and some hints as to the fact you were probably letting yourself in for grief....

Sorry, but that's the reality.

And yes, it IS appauling, and as 'enthusiasts' these Chinese-fake-away bikes are very REAL problem; not just becouse they target so many nieve newbies with them, but your kind of complaints tarnish the whole bike industry, and impact of lots of 'average folk' jumping up and down shouting at Trading standards...

Who can only explain what I have; they are exploiting loop-holes and running 'legitimate' con trick.

BUT it's caveot emptor, 'buyer beware'..

Becouse YOU didn't check the small print and make sure you knew what you were buying....

You are not alone; and it may seem unsympathetic; BUT you, and hundreds or thousands of people like you DID NOT do your home-work, thought you were getting a 'Real' bargain and learned the hard-way there's rarely such a thing as a free dinner...

You'll scrap your lads moped, and probably feel bitter about it, and as soon as he's 17 and done his lessons help him get a car... which WONT be a 'bargain', and THAT will be sum total of your involvement with motorcycles, ever.....

But for US, long standing motorcycle enthusiasts, the pebble in the pond of your experience, added to that of the hundreds like you, and thier pebbles, is creating a flood.

Saving people like you and your lad, from thier own gullability; 'powers that be' well have to consider the great number of non enthusiasts complaining about being 'duped', and to satisfy your ire at close the loop holes of self registration, but not just on the sharks exploiting it, to cash in on folks optimism and nievity and greed for bargains, but on all of us, long standing, enthusiasts, for whome those rules and regulations aren't a 'loop hole' but a way of life.

When I want to restore a historic motorcycle; or build a show special; I wont be able to, no matter HOW well built they are, nor can we register old bikes we have restored, nor even change something from catalogue specification on a bike bought from a recognised manufacturer.......

And THAT is what is being debated in the annals of power right now!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[P.addy]

[G]

[Teflon-Mike]

[Rogerborg]

Sorry Mike, there may be a few outfits still selling non-type approved box-o-bits, but it doesn't apply to Lexmoto bikes, at least not any more. All the bikes that Lexmoto sell are fully pre-built Euro 3 type approved, don't require an MSVA, and (unlike some bike-in-a-box dealers) Lexmoto handle the initial registration and tax themselves.

By the time they get into your hands, they are very definitely sold as road legal motorcycles and mopeds, and you have every much right to expect and demand that they are as fit for purpose as a Peugeot or Piaggo.

OP, you can try Trading Standards, but all they're likely to do is to ask nicely for you, and the Lexmoto franchise will have plenty of practice in ignoring them.

So you'll want to start down the line of a County Court small claim, starting with a Notice Before Action letter. You can't get the full price back after this amount of time, but - especially if you can get something in writing from a professional saying it's only fit for scrap - you can try claiming for the difference between the scrap price and a reasonable retail price for a 12 month old vehicle, e.g. about 2/3 to 3/4 of the new price.

The seller will of course ignore you or deny vehemently that you have any rights, but that's what County Court is for. You'll have to push this yourself, nobody is going to do it for you.

The other thing that you can do is to contact VOSA (enquiries at-symbol vosa.gov.uk) and tell them that this bike is unsafe. Quote the VIN and the manufacturer's details as well as the Lexmoto branding. It likely won't come to anything, but it'll make you feel better.

Oh, and definitely don't spend another penny on it, you're just pouring good money after bad.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Teflon-Mike]

[billyJo]

Hi all, me again

firstly, can i apologise to CHRIS-RED. i mis-read the replies before and thought it was you who said to try and attract the attention of Multijoy, sorry.

again, thank you for all your replies. some really interesting points made.

It was bought from a genuine lexmoto dealer, and could kick myself, really hard, because we were also looking elsewhere, at a 2nd hand Piaggio, because my eldest son had one when he was 16. At the time we only had a £1000 (paid £900 for the Lexmoto), please dont shout at me, i know thats cheap, but we really expected it to last the 12 to 18 months he would need to use it, and knew that we wouldnt get much back on it, ha ha, never thought it would be worthless!!
Anyway, i think ive flogged this enough. I still welcome any advice and will certainly recommend this site to friends when they tell me they are buying for thier kids.
The last thing i would want is to make things difficult to those who have no trouble at all and love motorbikes.
thanks again for all advice, thoughts and help. They say we learn by our mistakes, we certainly have

Jo

[G]

[multijoy]

I think my knowledge on the subject has been overexaggerated slightly - I'm a well informed pedan^H^H^H layman, rather than a professional (and please understand that this isn't formal advice).

Broadly, you're looking at seeking redress under the 'fit for purpose' and 'of satisfactory quality' bits of the under the 'Sales of Goods Act'. The fact that it's been in and out of the workshop longer than it's been ridden should tick these boxes.

However, you may have to be prepared for a fight as the garage will almost certainly end up making a loss on the bike. Have a look at the Which guide, and then go and speak to your local trading standards people, but you may find that they'll expect you to attempt to resolve the problem with the dealer first - if they do, do it by post - you need to avoid getting personal about it.

You may need to accept that it could go to the county court (probably the small claims track) before you get any redress. This isn't a complicated process, and isn't expensive if you're representing yourself or can get some pro bono assistance (look for local law clinics if there are any law schools or universities nearby).

First things first, however. I would be inclined to at least lay out the issues on paper - number of times it's been in, costs you've incurred, specific issues, number of breakdowns including dates and any receipts. Once you've got these facts, anyone advising you will be able to be much more specific.

Finally, write the bike itself off as a loss. Don't spend any more money on it, and if you do, make sure you keep a record of it.

(I'm going to briefly take issue with MT's point about you not doing your homework - there's hundreds of years of contract law that acknowledges that there are frequently massive differences in knowledge between parties to a contract, and the Sale of Goods Act was designed to address the fact that consumers are often the weakest parties in any given contract of sales - If you were another dealer, his points would be correct, but you're not. As a layman, you are entitled to accept the assurances given to you by the dealer at face value. Frankly, the more of these dealers who are bankrupted by county court claims, the better.)

On a last note (and it's for you to decide), you could simply try a letter to the dealer laying out the issues and asking for a refund on the basis that it is neither of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. They may well tell you to do one (in which case, off to court by way of trading standards), or they may offer a reduced sum (in which case you need to weigh up the 'bird in the hand' consideration).
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'11 CBF1000A, '99 C90, '98 CB500
silky666: He rode amazingly well considering his bike is the weight of a small van and had slicks on.

[stinkwheel]

My advice would be to definately contact trading standards. Their job is to give consumer advice on matters such as these. They should be able to advise you how to proceed and what best to put in your letters and such.

It is important that you do contact trading standards, if they get enough complaints about such things, they may decide to take further action. It doesn't always take a large number of complaints either.

On a personal note, I would suggest you do not spend anything further on it.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[billyJo]

Oh thanks again for replies

I really really appreciate all of your replies. some good information and support MultiJoy, thanks.

I have contacted Trading Standards and had some advice about going down the small claims route...

but just wanted to let you know we are getting our son a Honda X8R,, Hubby was looking at Lexmoto bike at work when a friend came across, who works at a garage on ind estate. He asked, 'whats up, etc' (probably wished he hadnt!!) and hubby told him brielfy (he dont waffle like me!!) and said, jokingly, 'you dont have one do you'. Low and behold he does.

At least we can get our son mobile again, not even a bus where we live!! and can now sort out what we are going to do about other bike.

THANKS again
JO

[Nope.]

[billyJo]

thanks for reply computid,, but hopefully all should be well. Its been checked by someone more knowledgable than us!!The fella who owned it was a retired mechanic/garage owner (never owned by youngsters) who only really used it to go back and forth to the chippy for his tea!!
Plus, he said if we do have problems he will help us out