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bendyknees
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JakeW476
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 Posted: 10:59 - 29 Aug 2011  Post subject: |
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Can test the pickups aswell for resistance, should be around 100ish ohms I think, best look it up. What should the charging be like 7 volts? 6.1 and it should still run alright I'd of thought with the lights off anyway  hah |
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| unitynotsocri... |
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unitynotsocri...
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| Posted: 11:36 - 29 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
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you could check the voltage regulator/rectifier?
keep on it they are decent bikes.if the heads /barrels have been off in the past then the timing chain for the valves should be checked for proper alignment.I've also read somwhere that there's two type of 200cc engines but they have different firing pulses,check the engine no's against the V5
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nearly a normal tax paying tosser.......with ferrileness suzi100,cg125,cb125scb100n,cb175,cd100,cj250t,kh250,c15,125 bantam,super 6,rickman gs750,xt500,250rs,dt175,lifan125,dolomite1850,metro,Morris220ld,morrisfg,leyland princess,range rover,corsa,vw camper .now struggling with legs. MORE ORDER = MORE CHAOS |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 12:26 - 29 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
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| unitycrippledatmo wrote: | keep on it they are decent bikes.if the heads /barrels have been off in the past then the timing chain for the valves should be checked for proper alignment.I've also read somwhere that there's two type of 200cc engines but they have different firing pulses,check the engine no's against the V5 |
Whether the heads been off or not; its the cam timing that needs checking. The chains slack off and effectively retard the valve timing.
Usually doesn't effect the running, particularly at idle, very much, as they are so softly tuned to begin with, but performance does drop off markedly, and probably struggle to get 50ish
Tends to happen on high mile bikes or ones that haven't been regularly maintained.
'Dereliction' causes problems on these engines; rings gum in the pistons, resulting in low compression. Often enough to run, and they often dont burn much oil... to begin with... but they pop and fart a bit at revs.
Other thing that occurs is that the valve seats rust, resulting in low compression, and more popping and farting.....
And the valve-stem seals go hard and stop sealing, letting oil down the guides.... which results in smoke, and loss of power, but nothing majorly dire.
However; I thought from original post; motor was now running 'OK' ignition working fine, it was just not charging the battery?
Which points at generator stator windings. Low resistance reading, also suggests a coil break-down. Same magnets make current on seperate windings for the sparks. But iof one winding has gone 'dud', possible, and likely that the ignition windings are 'on the way out' and intermittent ignition probs, COULD be that the insulation is breaking down as the engine gets hot.
As for firing order on 200 engines; the 'benley-series' motors were used in the CD 'Benley', the CM 'Rebel' cruiser, later CA Rebel Cruiser, and the CB.
Only the CB125 and CB200 got 180 Degree twin-spark cranks. CB125 engine, in original 6v form of early twin shocks is more closely related to the 200 Benley engine, with one piece rocker cover and head, rather than the earlier 185 Benleys head and cap arrangement, which the CB200 shared. Pretty hard to mix up a CB200 and CD200 engine, totally different heads. So very unlikely that firing order will be effected. 360 crank, both pistons at TDC at the same time, with 'lost spark' ignition, both plugs fired of a single input 'twin-coil', you can swap leads from side to side and bike still runs as happy as larry.....
Bendy: just for clarity; are the 'running issues' sorted?
Or is it still running rough refusing to rev or take load or anything?
Ie: is it merely the charging issue we should be thinking about?
Having knocked reg/rect on the head, by substitution test; only really leaves the battery itself, wiring to and from reg/rect, and the generator. That's ALL that is in the charging circuit.
Ignition is self exiting; so doesn't take current from battery
So you ought to be able to fire the engine up, and keep it running, without equipment curcuits.....
Couple of tests for you......
1/ Test AC voltage off the generator output windings; engine running. You should have three yellow wires heading to the reg/rect.
Use Mult-Meter on AC and range suitable to cover possibly 14v.
Connect between engine earth, a fin or engine mounting bolt, and each output wire in turn.
You should get something just over 6v at idle, rising with revs, possibly ramping quickly to over 12v by about 4K revs.
Check each winding in turn, see if they give 'similar' outputs.
2/ Re-connect generator multi-plug to Reg-Rect. NOW trace red wire out of reg/rect multi-plug into bike wiring loom.
Its often wired around the connector block on a bullet or lucar, because for some reason that wire likes to pull out of the connector.
Now; find suitable place to CUT that red wire, where you can splice it back together again.......
Reason, becouse you want to test actual Regulator/Rectifier output, without 'load' on the circuit.
Test earths between frame, and engine, and reg/rect... then test output voltage from isolated reg/rect wire.
Should get healthy volts on it.
3/ Presuming you have healthy volts... Remove battery.....
Now take flying lead from reg/rect output to battery poss, and another from battery neg to engine earth.
DO NOT use bikes wiring loom..... this is an 'isolated' test to check that the equipment circuits aren't sucking volts.
Make sure you STILL get charge voltage, or 'close' accross battery terminals....
I SUSPECT you wont, and that the reason is that the battery is shorting, internally between the plates, which are either warped and touching, or deposits have settled in the bottom creating a bridge between plates.
If so..... there in PROBABLY lies your problem.
4/ now with battery STILL removed, re-splice red wire from reg/rect to loom, and test volts accross the battery terminals, and see if you still get charging volts.
If you get a voltage drop, you as likely have an isolation problem; corroded earths or oxidised cables crating high resistance and voltage drop, robbing you of charge.
Could also be a short circuit, but if you do get voltage drop, battery removed, then you are down to isolating each accessory circuit in turn, and buzing them out to find your drain.
THAT is the charging issue fault tree.... but if you also still have ignition issues, then we are looking at the generator's ignition windings, the points, condensor, coil, plug leads, caps and engine earths....
Two issues MAY be related; and earthing issues, and broken down stator windings would give problems on both circuits; BUT its a question of working through the logic, to nail it, and treating the two mostly independent circuits individually.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| bendyknees |
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bendyknees
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| Posted: 18:14 - 29 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
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Wow thankyou for your extended answer mike. There are a couple of things that you mentioned. but before i go into that heres the lowdown on the current issues(no pun intended!)
Go to bike, switch on ignition, 1st kick or within about 2 rotations of electric start fires into life and idles smoothly at about 1200rpm. Smooth blips on the throttle sees revs rise normally and still no popping or farting,however if you pin the throttle quickly(warm engine of course) you get a slight pause, little induction roar an revs up.
Get on bike, pull away gently and with slight throttle revs up to about 4000rpm before starting to cough and splutter. The more you try to throttle through the flatspot/misfire the worse it seems to get, however (found this when bike made me quite angry) if you downshift hard and get the revs well up you can ride it like you stole it 
Also If you attempt to take part in the rush hour race off the line more embarrissing popping and farting again.
The compression seems good and i also set up a leak test at 125psi which also indicated no cylinder leaks.
Have checked all the earths they seem ok and i opened the loom insulation already to check for loose connections or the dreaded blue connectors of death!!
The battery does have quite a bit of sediment in the bottom, and i did have to top it up with acid as was below the plates when i first got the bike, but cant give it a charge as my 6 volt charger is about 100 years old and not exactly "safe" lol.
1 further note which is why i opened the loom and checked the earths, when you have the headlight on and the indicators the headlight dims quite badly in time with the flashes. But that has always been earth related from previous experience.
Thats most of it i think. anything further that i can think of will add it here. If needed i will ride down the road wit video cam on so you can see an hear for yourself!!
Damn bike. Why wont you work  |
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Fizzer Thou
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 23:49 - 29 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
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| bendyknees wrote: | Go to bike, switch on ignition, 1st kick or within about 2 rotations of electric start fires into life and idles smoothly at about 1200rpm. Smooth blips on the throttle sees revs rise normally and still no popping or farting,however if you pin the throttle quickly(warm engine of course) you get a slight pause, little induction roar an revs up.
Get on bike, pull away gently and with slight throttle revs up to about 4000rpm before starting to cough and splutter. The more you try to throttle through the flatspot/misfire the worse it seems to get, however (found this when bike made me quite angry) if you downshift hard and get the revs well up you can ride it like you stole it |
Hmmm I'd ignore that compression test; three CB engines have given similar symptoms; each time; much muggering around has seen me teardown the motor, replace barrels & pistons, lap valves, rebuild and re-time.... made a world of difference, BUT.... not completely cured it.
Ie; contributory factors; rings & valve seats.
Getting the bike to run and carburate cleanly; has taken mucho-muggering about.....
final fettling 'The Corporal' before Smiler had it; we spent a WEEK doing plug chops, changing one thing at a time in the carb, until I swapped the carburettor bodies.....
We nailed numerouse little niggles along the way; including replacement 38 idle jets that are about three times the size of genuine Keihn 38's!
Now, I have a CVV carb of a CM knocking around; as far as I can see this is the funny 'hybrid' Slide CV carb, with a lift mechanism on the slide as well as a diagpram, but no throttle butterfly.... WAMPY bludy thing.....
Variations on Benley engines over the years have been manyfold; and I know they have used a slide carb, CVV carb and CV at different times.
You swapped the carb originally on the bike for the one you had off Jaxx's didn't you?
You mentioned the carb designation, was it a PD33?
PD series are plain slide carbs.... and same series as the CB's carbs; that sounds a bit too big though; number denotes choke's 'equivilent' diameter... Carbs on CB125 are PD24's, and it has two of them; Full power 17bhp CB has twin PD26's, and I believe the CG125 uses a single PD26, 17bhp CD200 I would have expected to have had a PD26 or PD28..... both pots sucking through single manifold, on equally spoaced firing intervals suck alternately, so you DONT need a carb BIGGER to supply both pots as you would singles; provided the power rating isn't double, while shorter more evenly spaced 'pulses keeps air flow through more even and higher velocity up to maximum air-flow for better throttle response.
33 would seem a little 'large', but not unreasonably so, BUT simple slide carb, they do give the phemomina you describe, if opened too sharply... AND the PD series, prone, when old to being rather cantankerouse... and bodies CAN be to blame.
Anyway; back to CB expoeriences: I have a pair of 'control carbs' that came on one of my bikes with a load of paperwork that shows they were completely overhauled by Honda dealer, when the bike was 'playing up' for former owner; before they deleted all the bits from the catalogue!
Fitted them up to the Corporal before I did top end rebuild, when it was rather lathargic and playing up, similarly to your symptoms...
So, not carbs alone.....
Pulled motor to bits; barels weren't 'bad' and compression wasn't bad either; replaced barrel & pistons, lapped valves, did stemseals; retimed cam, put it all back in bike... BUT refitted original carbs... disapointingly ran like a bag of crap... pulled a damn site better, but, carburated like shit still... control carbs back on, pulled two up to 70, sweet as a nut.
I SUSPECT, you have a 'compound' fault... and you haven't eliminated enough variables to be sure of anything and are still trying to manage a three ring circus between engine internals, you dont want to look at, ignition you WANT it to be, and carb, you THINK is sorted.....
BUT, that's my 'suspicion'......
Jaxx's engine is here, along with wiring, as offer, welcome to pop over, take it away, do some swaps see what you get, see if you can nail the problems down by substitution.... where that will take you, I'm not sure... but I suspect it'll be either into an engine tear down, or engine swap....
Meanwhile, get a new 6v battery charger and a new battery.... or do 12v conversion, using CB or later Benley / CM generator, starter, & battery, and CDi ignition....
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| unitynotsocri... |
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unitynotsocri...
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| Posted: 08:18 - 30 Aug 2011 Post subject: |
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the wonkey indicators are standard on most 6 volt systems,sometimes reducing the bulb wattage helps but usually a good battery is whats needed.
have you checked the ignition timings right ,or that if any advance reatrd unit is fitted?
____________________
nearly a normal tax paying tosser.......with ferrileness suzi100,cg125,cb125scb100n,cb175,cd100,cj250t,kh250,c15,125 bantam,super 6,rickman gs750,xt500,250rs,dt175,lifan125,dolomite1850,metro,Morris220ld,morrisfg,leyland princess,range rover,corsa,vw camper .now struggling with legs. MORE ORDER = MORE CHAOS |
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