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Argh SMIDSY's

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totalllama82
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Argh SMIDSY's Reply with quote

It seems I go through stages where I get a patch of SMIDSY's and wondered if you guys got this too?

Sunday, a leisurely ride down to my branch of J&S and took the long way home through some of the twisty A roads. Taking my time at the back of a line of cars we approch a crossroad where my road has right of way (A road where a B road crosses). A guy in a VW golf is sitting patiently until the line of cars in front of me pass then lunges 6 feet forward/into my path. Luckily i'm not doing anything crazy so jam on the anchors and give him a questioning look.

Monday, A 2 lane roundabout, taking the third exit. I'm in the right lane going round past exit 2 and a van hurtles out into the inside lane without looking. He got a fingerwag 'naughty'.

Tuesday, Filtering through a line of cars doing about 5 mph. Road is jammed up. A guy switches lanes without indicating (or looking!) in front of me. I get side by side to see his blackberry in his lap and a big glum look on his coupon. He got the visor point - mirror point - head shake treatment.

Hopefully thats my last one for a wee while. Reckon I need to bust out the hi vis vest again Sad
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is called simple probability. If a certain biker in certain gear on a certain bike on average gets pulled out on once a day, somewhere it will happen 100 times in 1 day then nothing for the next 99 days.

Shit happens, high vis ftw
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neil.
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't bother with the hi-viz - makes no difference - I still got taken out by someone who didn't look. Rolling Eyes
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

neil. wrote:
Don't bother with the hi-viz - makes no difference - I still got taken out by someone who didn't look. Rolling Eyes


It does. You are stupid if you think it doesn't make a difference.
When I used to wear a black/dark blue jacket I would get pulled out on, on a daily basis, now it only happens in extreme weather conditions or on the occasion where some numpty just doesn't look.
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P.
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orange wheels, loud can, bright lid.

I've never worn a hi viz, so haven't been able to see what changes on my commute... but i've been pretty SMIDSY free recently Laughing
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totalllama82
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the HiVis, i found the biggest difference filtering. There is a noticeable amount of people who seem to make room for you.

I put it away for the lighter days but now that Scotland is in deep winter (one of its two yearly seasons) I reckon it is a good shout.
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J.M.
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had one this morning actually; was just moving over into a left hand only lane (traffic to the right of me had stopped, I was about to be the first in the left hand only lane. Well anyhow, riding over the "keep clear" lines a van decides to pull out from here.
He only pulled a foot or two out before he spotted me, and I was going slow enough to stop if he didn't so not too fussed about it really Laughing
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iooi
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
on the occasion where some numpty just doesn't look.


And SMIDSY

Means....... Laughing

Wearing a Hi-Vis made no diffrence on my commute. You still get the numpties who fail to take into account other road users Twisted Evil
What has made a far greater diffrence is 2 LED's as side lights
Amazing how coupled with a white helmet and a upright riding position they make Laughing Even on a black bike....
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neil.
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong I still wear one (might count towards your favour in a SMIDSY by making you look more responsible etc to insurers) - perhaps I should have worded my last post differently. I meant to say that they haven't made much difference in my experience (don't notice more or less near misses whether I'm wearing it or not), and I think it was Teflon-Mike who pointed out a study that showed they can actually 'camouflage' you because people are so used to seeing them, that their subconscious doesn't acknowledge you. I think he suggested that a Sam Browne belt would be better at breaking up your outline whilst others recognised you as a 2-wheeled vehicle/horse person pretty much immediately.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 04 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of people on the road, all with varying amounts of looking time.

If someone doesn't look at all, nothing will make a difference, just don't be there is the best advice.

If someone looks quickly, high vis makes a difference, as does headlight being on, as does LED's etc

The ideal would be a strobe light but I am sure the rozzers wouldn't be too happy
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wilbur
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 05 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
There are lots of people on the road, all with varying amounts of looking time.

If someone doesn't look at all, nothing will make a difference, just don't be there is the best advice.

If someone looks quickly, high vis makes a difference, as does headlight being on, as does LED's etc

The ideal would be a strobe light but I am sure the rozzers wouldn't be too happy


Having been rear ended twice this year I am seriously looking at hi Viz . Its dirt cheap and if it decreases the chances of it happening again then its worth it to me.
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Gleamingbike
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 05 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk about SMIDSY's, back in August 2008 while riding my freshly restored Gpz 750 Unitrak I thought I'd take her out for a few miles prior to an oil change, dual carriageway approaching a roundabout I was in the right hand lane to go straight on ( well within my rights but looking back now I suppose I left myself a bit vulnerable) the car in the left hand lane was a left hooker with Belgian plates and the back window stuffed up with clothes!, we were neck and neck on the roundabout when f**k me he swings hard right and twats and breaks my left ankle hurling me over the handlebars only to land on my left shoulder which immediatly broke, managed to roll onto the central reservation where I effed and gesticulated to the offender who turns out to be an immigrant of African origin who does nothing but stand there looking at me, a short while later a paramedic and police car turn up with two officers to take brief statements and what a supprise the offender can't speak English.

Six weeks later and with the plastercast off I find out that the police considered an arrest for dangerous driving but were unable to obtain an interpreter on that day to read him his rights so let him go after he gave them a false address. ( please note, not blaming the police for that but the stupid system)

Looking back now I just put this down to a crap day and try to gain from the experience in my riding.
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...
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 05 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was knocked off whilst wearing my hi-vis. Even got the immortal words "Sorry mate I didn't see you".

Just saying Laughing
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 05 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say high vis prevented smidsy's, it just reduces the risk
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MaybeGuy
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 05 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

why is this shit about fake SMIDSYs going about?

AFAI'm concerned, a smidsy is a crash, not a near miss.

all these claimed ones are fucking NEAR MISSES. crash or something, and when the guy gets out of the car and says ''sorry mate I didn't see you'', then make a post about having one.
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 08:04 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
It does. You are stupid if you think it doesn't make a difference.



Prove it.


It is easy to say it is brighter, therefore it is more visible, therefore I will be less likely to die but if you really think about it I am not sure that it is true. Most of the stats suggesting white lids and Hi Vis are protective are outdated, from different countries and biased in the sense that safer riders will seek out ways to make themselves safer (i.e. buying a white lid and hi vis) and are less likely to be involved in a crash regardless of their gear. We need a large scale random controlled trial to know for sure.

I happen to think it doesn't make a difference for several reasons. The most obvious one is that many SMIDSYs are caused by people not looking in the first place - hi vis will not make a difference here. Then you have a large number of accidents caused when people did look but didn't see you.

In these instances Hi Vis could be a bad thing, for a start it can camoflague you against a background of pale colours or something like the sky (i.e. as you come over a hill) but also, and IMO most significantly it breaks up your outline. Humans recognise objects subconsciously by a few things but shape is a BIG part of it, the silhouette of a motorcyclist with and without hivis are significantly different. A guy with dark gear and no DRLs has a defined outline, a guy wearing hi vis vest, white lid, coloured bike with a headlight on is a splash of random colour without a crisp silhouette. Breaking up the silhouette is the technique used by zebras as camoflague because it means they cannot be singled out among the herd. Same thing was used as camoflague on warships because it makes it hard to judge size, detail, shape, distance, speed and direction - several things I would like a car about to pull out to judge accurately about me.

i.e. Dazzle camouflaged warship

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/HMAS_Yarra_%28AWM_016263%29.jpg


I can't prove if it is safer to wear or not wear Hi vis, white lids and run DRLs but the point is, to date neither can anybody else. Makes it rather concerning when the EU is force feeding hi vis gear onto many countries' motorcyclists.
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shereen
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never worn a high vis apart from on my DAS. And I dont think I could be persuaded to, by people saying it makes a difference because IMO I dont think it does.

What I find makes the most difference is a loud end can, and lots of revs when filtering.

My bike had its MOT last week, I had the standard can on whilst riding to work, the amount of times I nearly got deaded on the way there was a massive increase compared to when I have my Tyga fitted Thumbs Up
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Redoko
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PostPosted: 10:29 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsprattuk wrote:
why is this shit about fake SMIDSYs going about?

AFAI'm concerned, a smidsy is a crash, not a near miss.

all these claimed ones are fucking NEAR MISSES. crash or something, and when the guy gets out of the car and says ''sorry mate I didn't see you'', then make a post about having one.


Agreed.

I expect to see broken bone x rays and crashed bike pics with threads with SMIDSY you in.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

DonnyBrago wrote:
Makes it rather concerning when the EU is force feeding hi vis gear onto many countries' motorcyclists.


Tosh. France and Ireland are going it alone. That's neither "the EU" nor "many countries".

You almost had me convinced about the dazzle camouflage as well. Razz

Come on, just say that hi-vis makes you look like a tard, and leave it at that.
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Tosh. France and Ireland are going it alone. That's neither "the EU" nor "many countries".

You almost had me convinced about the dazzle camouflage as well. Razz

Come on, just say that hi-vis makes you look like a tard, and leave it at that.



Fair enough, I had heard compulsory Hi Vis was an EU proposal and assumed Ireland et al were getting in early, apologies if I was wrong.


Either way it doesn't detract from the pros/cons of hi vis being largely unproven and it does not account for risk compensation i.e. they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.


Looking like a tard is just the cherry on top Thumbs Up .
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riding dangerously because you feel safer is nothing to do with high vis, that it the rider.

I wear it because at night with my crappy headlight I am more visible. I can see my arms glowing under street lights and in other people lights.
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
Riding dangerously because you feel safer is nothing to do with high vis, that it the rider.

I wear it because at night with my crappy headlight I am more visible. I can see my arms glowing under street lights and in other people lights.



Risk compensation is a subconscious event, it is something done by all humans and is initiated by feeling safer, feeling safer could be caused by the rider feeling more visible as a result of wearing hi vis. You clearly feel safer by wearing hi vis, (you may well be safer) but this almost certainly has an effect on your behaviour. I can feel it when I go out without gear on, or drive without a seat belt - I ride/drive to a level I consider safer to compensate for the increased risk but it doesn't need to be this dramatic to have an effect.

Anyway my point wasn't that you are NOT safer wearing it, it is that we do not know if you are safer because we haven't tested it properly. My opinion is that hi vis is not safer, but my opinion is as untested as yours.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why take the risk though? If it does help, which it may, then why not wear it?
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
Why take the risk though? If it does help, which it may, then why not wear it?


Because like I said in my 1st post it might make us more likely to NOT be seen and crash. Why take the risk Wink ?


I can "almost" see the point in retro reflective materials so that you glow under headlamps (although the lights of a motorist about to pull out on you will be pointing the wrong way, and if they cant see a headlight a dull reflective glow hurtling at their windscreen is likely to go unnoticed), but I struggle to accept without evidence that yellow coats reduce the number of road accidents when there are plenty of mechanisms by which the opposite could be true.

In short, there is little proof either way but I can see more reasons against hi vis than for hi vis.
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The Spin Doctor
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 06 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

DonnyBrago wrote:
I can't prove if it is safer to wear or not wear Hi vis, white lids and run DRLs but the point is, to date neither can anybody else.


Correct...

There has been no reduction in the % of motorcycle collisions with other vehicles in urban areas since the 80s (when no-one used day riding lights or hi-vis) to the current day (when significant numbers of riders use both).

Nor is there any evidence in countries where DRLs were made compulsory of any drop in collisions after the law came in.

That should tell us something.
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