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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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 Posted: 16:27 - 14 Oct 2011  Post subject: Post 2013 A2 license fret-thread |
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Please move along if this doesn't interest you, but a thought has just been thunk in my brain.
Something was recently pointed out to me about the 3rd Directive licensing scheme due to start in January 2013, and I've just now seen the consequences of it.
Direct Access to a full A license is moving up from 21 to 24. Or you can sit it 2 years after passing the new A2 test. The new A1 license, as with the current one, will only license you to ride 125 machines. Those are known quantities.
The UK is setting the minimum age for sitting the intermediate A2 35kW license at 19. Now, I'd assumed that this meant you could get direct access to it at 19, but I now think that's wrong. On a re-read of the Directive, I cannot see any provision for direct access to A2. It looks like you can only sit it 2 years after obtaining an A1 license.
Is anyone seeing the problem yet? I'll give you a second.
Here we go. What happens on January 19th 2013?
Here's some case studies.
Darril is 17 and wants a well wicked fast bike for dodgin the popo innit. What are his options?
 Do a CBT, ride a 125 on L plates.
Optionally pass A1, but he's still limited to his CBR125R until 2015 at the earliest.
Denzyl is 19 and wants a commuter bike for getting to college. What are his options?
Do a CBT, ride a 125 on L plates.
Optionally pass A1, but he's still limited to his YBR125 until 2015 at the earliest.
Derrik is 21 and wants a sports-tourer for commuting and motorway trips. What are his options?
Do a CBT, ride a 125 on L plates.
Optionally pass A1, but he's still limited to his CBF125 until 2015 at the earliest.
Dundas is 23 and likes leather chaps. Let's get him on a cruiser. What are his options?
Do a CBT, ride a 125 on L plates.
Optionally pass A1, but he's still limited to his GZ125 until he hits 24, in about 2014.
See the pattern? What about those who are 24 or over? Well, they can ride a 125 on L plates, ride the same 125 after passing A1 (why?), or go direct to full A.
Do you see anyone who could sit an A2 test? No, neither can I.
So. Regardless of your age, you cannot sit the A2 test. Nobody can, because (essentially) nobody has an A1 license obtained more than 2 years ago.
So there will be zero 35kW licensees until January 2015 at the earliest. And even then only those who bothered to pass an A1 test in 2013, which won't get them access to any better bike than the same 125 that they can just ride on L plates.
Uh. Oh.
If you don't have a license and are under 24, then the only bikes that you can legally ride for 2 years (or until you hit 24 and do DAS to A) will be 11kW 125s. There's just no way to get on anything bigger before 2015, no restriction route, nothing.
People here had speculated that A2 would be a pariah license, and I'd disagreed since it's actually quite generous compared to the current 25kW restriction.
I now recant that. Since there will be a 2 year period when it essentially won't exist, I now agree that it's far more likely that it'll become a quirk, and that new bikers will be quite likely to just wait it out until 24, or to ride 125s on Ls until then.
At a minimum, there will be a 7 year group of new riders (17th birthday to 24th birthday) who will be be removed overnight as potential new buyers of larger machines, restricted or otherwise, until at least 2015. They will simply have no route to get on anything bigger than an 11kW 125.
If you've got this far but can't see why this effects you since you already have a license: where do you plan to get your bikes from in future?
This now looks to me like a massive kick in the balls to an industry that's staggering on the back foot, and with new licensees already halved since the 2 part test came in. 
I'm now seriously wondering - hoping, really - if the 9 month tardiness in publishing our implementation of the 3rd Directive is down to someone at the DfT with more thunks in their head than me has spotted this and gone "What... the...?"
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| kramdra |
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kramdra
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MattJ
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MarJay
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J.M.
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MattJ
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| waffles |
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waffles
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Posted: 19:03 - 14 Oct 2011  Post subject: |
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| MattJ wrote: | I am 18, I passed my A2 test in August 2011 so I'm restricted to 33BHP. Does this new directive affect me or by the time August 2013 comes along will I have a full unrestricted license? |
As far as I understand you won't be affected as you now have your bike entitlement regardless of whether it is restricted or not. So no, you are fine.
I can see the second hand bike market shrinking quite a lot and the price of 125's soaring. I had to read your post twice, Rogerborg, to make sure I understood it properly and im still not sure I see the "bigger picture". Seems like a ploy to put people off biking and therefore reduce the number of folks who prefer two wheels to four.
____________________
Theory test - 19/8/09, CBT - 11/10/09, MOD 1 - 16/8/10, MOD 2 - 27/10/10
Past rides Yamaha XT125X, Triumph TT600, Honda XR250
Current rides Suzuki GSXR 600, Honda MSX125 |
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| Jayy |
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Jayy
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| Posted: 19:15 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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So this is DEFFO happening in January 2013? Not good for second hand bikes and prices 
I suppose the higher age limit of 24 is a bit more of an incentive for the younger one's to stay on a 125 for 2 years because waiting 7 years is a long time. |
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| Walloper |
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Walloper
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| Posted: 19:33 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg, thanks for over-simplifying that for me.  
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 19:35 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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If you're already on a "restricted" license then you should be fine.
| The 3rd Directive wrote: | (5) This Directive should not prejudice existing entitlements to drive granted or acquired before its date of application. |
| waffles wrote: | I had to read your post twice, Rogerborg, to make sure I understood it properly and im still not sure I see the "bigger picture". |
That there will a 2 year period when all new bikers under 24 years old will have no way to access to anything larger than a 125.
I'm trying to picture what impact this 2013 - 2015 austerity period will have on dealers, and I can't see it being good.
| waffles wrote: | Seems like a ploy to put people off biking and therefore reduce the number of folks who prefer two wheels to four. |
I think this particular 2 year trial of fire is just a bonus, but yes, the EU as a whole seems to be fairly rabidly anti-bike. Certainly anything larger than 125cc is machina non grata.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 20:27 - 14 Oct 2011  Post subject: |
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| MarJay wrote: | Bikers are getting older anyway... I don't think it will do people too much harm to wait until they are 24. |
Actually average age has fluctuated.
In the 1960's you could ride a 250 on a learner licence; and you were eligible for a learner motorcycle licence at 16, you weren't eligible for learner car licence until 18. 1972 'Moped' law was actually more. Raised motorcycle entitlement age to 17, and LOWERED car entitlement age to 17, so there wasn't that two year gap where you could 'only' have a motorbike; where people exploited fact that three wheelers were classed as motorcycles and could be 'driven' on motorbike licence, at 16 to have a 'car'.
That saw a shift in demographic; encouraging more new licence holders to ope straight away to cars.
1982 125 Learner-Laws, removing some perpetual L-Plating privilidges, knocked further numbers out of biking and the intake, making cars the more atractive to new licence holders.
The co-incident two part Motorcycle test.... (Rog.. when you said introduction of two part test, do you mean the 'split practical' Mod 1 & Mod 2.... because the 'Two Part' test was introduced in 1982! And that MORE than halved the number of riders applying for tests! YET, since 1982, numbers of riders has actually increased probably ten fould!)... combined with two year provisional restriction, also saw uptake in new riders fall, with the many 17-19 year olds NOT able to get tests within provisional entitlement period; and taking CAR licence to side step 12month provisional 'ban'.... and often switching to cars, never passing tests.
Through the 1970's, rider numbers dropped of big time, through to the mid 1990's. AND where biking HAD been a 'young' activity most riders in the 16-25 age group; and had been an alternative to the car as practical every day means of transport..... the impediments of licencing, and the ecconomics of cheap mass produced cars, and easy credit, saw the motorcycling threatened as a mode of transport of necessity.
Ever more sophisticated, ever more specialised and higher and higher performance motorcycles from Japan, however saw motorcycling re-invent itself as a leisure activity, apealing to a much 'older' market, where a motorcycle was a piece of sporting equipment, like a pair of ski's, a sail-boat or a multi-gym.
And the DAS rules of early 90's, offered a 'fast track' to a full licence, significantly aided the intake of new riders from this market.
Hence; the aging demographic of the motorcyclist over the last twenty years.
However; upturn in rider numbers, the market swelling has actually masked the fact that the intake of YOUNG riders in the 16-25 age group has significantly increased year on year, and while the 'older' usually 30/40 something 'Leisure Riders' have remained the majority, within the under 25's a very healthy number of 'necessity' riders exist and the number of those 'every day' riders, aided by London Conjestion Charging, & other city parking tarrifs, have probably increased to numbers NOT seen since the 1960's, and possibly exceeding them!
But the ONE significant thing bringing more young, under 25's into biking is not legislative, simply economic. The punitive insurance premiums of young car drivers.
However; the 'relaxed' L-Plate laws, and the 'convoluted' licencing regime; do encourage younger riders, and ecconomy riders to perpetual L-Plate on CBT already
3rd Directive, merely re-enforces the reasons creating this trend.
Meanwhile; the question of whether the licence is going to be 'staged' with A1 being porecursor requirement to A2 and A2 a precursor requirement to full 'A', and how DAS provisions will be re-arranged to suit, is fairly accademic.
Gaining a licence will necessitate DAS style training.
That is certain for 24 year olds doing conventional DAS.
Any-one going A2, by the requirements will have to 'test' on a bike they cant ride on a learner licence; hence there will have to be DAS style provision for them to train DAS style.
Any-One going A1.... well, here in lies a can of worms. 'Assurances' have been issued that we will be keeping CBT, and that we will retain unsupervised L-Plate entitlement.
Every-One here knows my oft provided opinion of perpetual L-Plating, and the unsupervised loop-hole...... and how I dont condone it..... but I DO agree with the spirit, behind the letter of the law that provided it, and deem it a 'useful' loop-hole to have to give newbies a good start. AND how I am not a fan of intensive DAS giving crammed pass your test training, to hand newbies the keys to mega-bikes with a fist full of falce confidence....
However; EU law 'strictly' would make unsupervised L-Plating a breach of treaty law.
As Rog has repeatedly pointed out; IF unsupervised L-Plating is retained, how they rationalise that against EU law remains to be seen.
And likely, if it IS retained, supporting 'assurances' (remember, politicians are always handing out 'assurances', like 'no new taxes' that they fail to keep!), would only take one test case in Brussels, by some-one claiming damages for injury sustained riding on L's for the government to close the loop hole, IF they 'actually' leave it.
Meanwhile in the DETAIL of the 3rd directive legislation', every one keeps saying that A1 licence wont change, but the testing regime will. As other licence groups testing has to be on machine 'typical' of the entiltlement group. Hence A2 you have to test on 45Kw 500.
Currently we test for A1 on any 'motorcycle' up to 120cc. So Honda C70, Vespa 90, twist & go 100cc Scooter; even an unrestricted 50, provided its actually registered as a motorcycle, AFAIK.
Current test regime for full A (restricted); requires 120-125cc bike, on DSA listr as meeting performance requirements.
THAT is likely to become the test req's for ALL A1 licencing.......
Let that sink in.
If you ride a C70, and want to test for A1, to avoid repeat CBT to perpetually L-Plate; you will have to rent school bikes to do it......
So its not 'just' A2 that will start demanding DAS style school training courses, likely to impact ALL groups!
Meanwhile, still the big question of how much faith we may have that CBT and unsupervised L-Plating will be retained ANYWAY.
Will they falter at the finish line? In which case could be that L-Plating will be 'lost' and to even get on a 125, you HAVE to train DAS style, on a 125, JUST to ride your scooter....
WHAT that will mean for mopeds is yet another question. Will moped entitlement be dropped from full car licence holders entitlement? Will the MOIPED test have to be trained & passed before 16 year olds can get on the road?
These 'little details' remain uncertain. We only have 'assurances' in that blanket statement about retaining unsupervised L-Plating....
But back to the ploy; will A1 be preliminary requirement to test for A2 and that to test for full A?
And does it matter?
Currently, take up for training on 125's for A (restricted) is very low. Not many schools offer 125 training, and if they do, they charge as much for it as they do DAS training.....
In part because unsupervised L-Plating not making it necessary or economically attractive deters so many, who as often as not 'self train' and if they pass tests, are greatful, if not, as often as not wait out eligibility to do DAS when they are 21 remaining in L's when thier money spent on training gets them something they see as more valuable.
Bike schools currently have to maintain a double fleet of training bikes; 125's for CBT and possibly 125 test training, if they offer it; and full-power DAS bikes.
Come 3rd Directive; they may still be able to offer a1 'Courses', using thier CBT bikes, whether CBT remains or not. They will still be able to offer DAS courses using thier current or updated fleet of DAS bikes, BUT a2 would demand a third 'fleet'.
More a fleet, to offer courses merely to 19-24 year olds, and the few of those prepared to pay full DAS training fees, toi get only a 'half licence'... where currently very few are prepared to pay for training to get a FULL licence, training on a 125......
Consequently few schools have much intension of gearing up to offer A2 training.... some say they will wait and see, but many already aren't actually interested in even CBT, except as part of DAS, which remains where the money in the business is at.
Remember, leisure bikers buying a fast track to a new hobby are prepared to pay the £1000 typical of a DAS course, when thats only a fraction of the price of the new hyper-bike they have their heart set on...... economy bikers, wanting something cheap to get to and from work, or more affordable than the two and a half grand insurance premium on a 950 Fiesta, that kind of money is likely to be their entire get on the road budget!
So whatever the actuall arrangement of wording in the bill passed by parliment when it hits the statute books.......
PRACTICALLY.... at 17, you will still be able to ride a 125..... possibly on no more than CBT and L's, though that remains to be seen....
But whetever is in the detail of the testing regimes, even if you can test on your own bike for A1, and WANT to test DAS style for a half licence as soon as you are entitled, for A2......
Without infrastructure to support and enable that aspiration, via schools offering the courses, and affordably..... it will mean lumping it on a 125 until DAS eligible at 24.....
The Devil IS in the detail... and we do have to wait and see until there Is an actuall published bill to be presented to parliment, to find out even what the details MAY be........
BUT practically, however it's actually arranged; its simply re-enforcing trends already in existance, making access to a full, unrestrictive licence more onerouse to younger, and ecconomy riders, while not actually addressing the easy, fast track access of older more affluent riders, who ARE actually the biggest 'spike' in the accident stats!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| TheSmiler |
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 21:27 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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I'm going get my test done next year so hopefully won't be affected be affected by that change. However what is worrying me is the scrapage scheme that they are bringing to bikes.
"Bikes older than 7 years banned form urban areas" this is what is the most curious to me as most bikers on here have bikes over 7 years that would have to be scrapped if that came into effect.
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CB125>CG125>GN125>ER5>K100RS>R1100RS>K100RS
A2 completed 23/07/15 Ready for the Golden Crisp Packet |
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| N cee thirty |
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N cee thirty
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J.M.
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| rac3r |
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rac3r
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| Posted: 21:48 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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Knot600RR
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| ms51ves3 |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 23:56 - 14 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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The "no bikes over 7 years old in urban areas" was a piece of Froggish insanity that's already been kyboshed by their active Angry Bikers. Fret thee not about that.
| MarJay wrote: | Bikers are getting older anyway... I don't think it will do people too much harm to wait until they are 24. |
People, no. Dealers, hmmm.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Bike schools currently have to maintain a double fleet of training bikes; 125's for CBT and possibly 125 test training, if they offer it; and full-power DAS bikes. [...] BUT a2 would demand a third 'fleet'. |
I believe that the first A2 tests won't be done until 2015, by which time the current training school 500s will be sheds. I'd expect A and A2 to both be done on exactly the same 600-650 bikes, and for A2 and A courses to cost exactly the same.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Consequently few schools have much intension of gearing up to offer A2 training |
Looks like they'll have over 3 years to decide, instead of 1.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | The Devil IS in the detail... and we do have to wait and see until there Is an actuall published bill to be presented to parliment, to find out even what the details MAY be........ |
Heck, we don't even know if it'll be primary legislation requiring Parliamentary approval, or simply new regulations imposed by fiat.
9 months late. 
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Imonster |
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Imonster
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| Posted: 02:17 - 15 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | The Devil IS in the detail... and we do have to wait and see until there Is an actuall published bill to be presented to parliment, to find out even what the details MAY be........ |
Heck, we don't even know if it'll be primary legislation requiring Parliamentary approval, or simply new regulations imposed by fiat.
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| I am the European Communities Act 1972 and you can piss off with your "democracy" wrote: |
2 General implementation of Treaties.
(1)All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression [F1 “enforceable EU right”] and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this subsection applies.
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We're doomed
Off roading and no numberplate for this young man please 
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| Slacker24seve... |
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| richrock |
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richrock
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| Posted: 09:19 - 15 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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Bikers getting older - maybe true, I see many older guys and gals at the meets in my local town.
I've never stopped because I'm only on a 125 with 'L's and scared people will just take mick.
I see another side to this -
Where I work I'm the only one who would ride a motorbike, everyone I work with says 'they're too dangerous'. Even in my other social groups, when I'm at the pub, or where-ever, it's the same dangerous form of transport - where is this perception coming from? I was brought up always being told motorbikes would kill me, they're dangerous, etc... blahblah. Plenty of other things could have killed me by now - alcohol addiction, mountain biking, depression.
I've had more dangerous 'offs' going mountain biking. I'm now *ahem* 36, and only just starting my biking 'life'.
Even I find the current system hard to explain to others - car drivers have one licence for their vehicle type, and add others for larger commercial vehicles, buses, hgv, etc. One licence that could (insurance fees permitting) allow me to buy a Pug 107 or a Bugatti Veyron.
Why is the motorbike licence so different?.
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I has a motorbikes: Kawasaki GPZ500s (1999)- theory passed 12/06/12, test passed 10/07/12 |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 122 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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