 |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
| P.addy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
P.addy
Red Rocket
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Karma :  
|
|
| Back to top |
   |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| mossi123uk |
This post is not being displayed .
|
mossi123uk
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Karma :  
|
 Posted: 13:20 - 18 Oct 2011  Post subject: |
 |
|
ive already had a little little go in his garden but couldnt get out of first gear cos it was only a small garden  |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| P.addy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
P.addy
Red Rocket
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 13:24 - 18 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
1st gear is nothing... if you start leaving first gear you are hitting some illegal speeds pretty quick.
125cc > 600cc is fine.. when you have some decent experience.
Personally I think I would have been fine to go 125>600 but was happy with a 500 twin.
Go easy, I've let a guy who just passed his CBT have a go on my 125 v twin... who then dropped it out of sight  |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| _Troy_ |
This post is not being displayed .
|
_Troy_
World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| mossi123uk |
This post is not being displayed .
|
mossi123uk
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| P.addy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
P.addy
Red Rocket
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| _Troy_ |
This post is not being displayed .
|
_Troy_
World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 16:39 - 18 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| mossi123uk wrote: | im not a 100% unexperienced rider i havnt dont much road riding on a bike but loads in a car and just been on a field a few times on highest a 125 but not ridden a bike in last 2 years |
I'm not an entirely unexperienced pilot; took a few lessons in a whirley bird, flew a microlite for a while..... do you think that means I could jump behind the controls of a Tornado jet? 
We're not answering the question you want answered are we?
Your 'mate' has a very nice bike, by the sounds of it; and he would love you to buy it for a better price than he failed to get for it on e-bay.
You have a lot of emotive attachement to it; probably aquired from his enthusiasm for the machine, and your own romantic ideas of what it muct be like to own and ride.
BUT: facts are facts:-
- THIS bike, is NOT a bargain, even if you really must have a ZX6
- a ZX6R is NOT the most suitable newbie bike
- You ARE a newbie; no mater how much you try and convince yourself you are not 'quite' such a newbie as utter newbies!
End of the day its your money, and your life, you can do what you like. But PLEASE stop tyring to kid yourself, more, us!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Paulington |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Paulington
World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Karma :
|
| Posted: 16:50 - 18 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
Given the fact you are doing DAS, and as you've been driving a car that amount of time I am taking a bit of a guess as to your age, but if I am right...
YOU, and people YOUR age are the HIGHEST RISK GROUP for dying on a motorcycle, want to know why? It's because, they think:
"Hey, I'm a bit older now, a bit wiser, I've always wanted a motorbike so I will go do my DAS."
Then, at some point they also think to themselves:
"Yeah, I've got great skills, I've been driving a car for 10+ years and I rode 125s in a field when I was younger, yeah, that's brilliant."
So they think they are automatically qualified to go out and buy a supersports. They do so, and within six months they come off and either pile themselves into a car or a stationary object and break themselves dead because they over-estimate their capabilities about a hundredfold.
Why do you even want a supersports first off? They do nothing but go quick and corner fast, they aren't as comfy as other bikes, they can't carry anything without buying extras, their tyres are more expensive, anything that breaks is more expensive, when you drop it you will ruin the fairings and that will costs hundreds of pounds to fix and the list goes on etc etc.
You would go much better to start on a bike with slightly less (not a whole lot less) powerful but much more new-rider friendly, such as a Honda Hornet, like these:
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/$%28KGrHqR,!k4E6FC+9WqTBOidMe!vn!~~_12.JPG.
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjgyWDEwMjQ=/$%28KGrHqMOKnQE5JfGZ9YRBOkWCRBZCw~~60_12.JPG.
The first picture is a 2001 Hornet, you can pick up 2000-2004 Hornets in fantastic condition for £1500-£2000 and the insurance will be around £450 FULLY COMP instead of bloody TPO! They will do 0-60 in around the same time as the ZX6R and near the same top speed but you are much less likely to do it as due to the lack of wind protection it's harder.
The second picture is a 2008 Hornet, you can pick these up for £3000-£3500 as they are newer and look sportier, insurance will be around the same as above, maybe a tiny bit more and the performance is exactly the same as above also really, both bikes will keep up with 600 sports bikes on the roads no problem until you start hitting 130mph and when will you be doing that?
Also, you say you aren't a speed freak so you won't be going fast a lot, those bikes are really comfy for long journeys and great for pillions should you want to carry one and they hold their value very, very well so when you come to sell it in a little whiles time, you will get the value you paid for it pretty much and for almost no cost, you will have gained a LOT of valuable experience with a lot less risk, if you drop a Hornet you will get a few scratches and a bent lever or two which costs almost nothing to replace instead of a bill around £1000 for fairing replacement and all the other damage you'll get on a sports bike.
Go to a bike dealership, sit on some new and second hand bikes and see what feels best for you when you are sat on it, I had my eyes on a bike when I was just passing my test, went to buy one cash in hand and when I sat on it I HATED it, instead my Dad pointed me towards another and I loved it, same power, same speed just a different bike.
As Teflon-Mike said, that ZX6R is far too expensive anyway, there are loads out there much cheaper so he's trying to have you anyway and I doubt you've driven a car that even comes remotely close to the performance of a 600 Supersports, they are a different world. You are a newbie when it comes to bikes (and so am I really, only been riding three years, still lots to learn!) but an overconfident person thinking they have enough experience and skills to ride a 600 supersports combined with actually owning one is a recipe for a horrible disaster.
Best of luck with your test, I am glad you are confident but overconfidence can be just as bad as nerves for making you fail your test.
Cheers!  !
____________________
"Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| waffles |
This post is not being displayed .
|
waffles
World Chat Champion
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 18:36 - 18 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Paulington wrote: | YOU, and people YOUR age are the HIGHEST RISK GROUP for dying on a motorcycle, want to know why? It's because, they think:
"Hey, I'm a bit older now, a bit wiser, I've always wanted a motorbike so I will go do my DAS."
Then, at some point they also think to themselves:
"Yeah, I've got great skills, I've been driving a car for 10+ years and I rode 125s in a field when I was younger, yeah, that's brilliant."
So they think they are automatically qualified to go out and buy a supersports. They do so, and within six months they come off and either pile themselves into a car or a stationary object and break themselves dead because they over-estimate their capabilities about a hundredfold. |
Actually, slightly more convoluted; they get a 600SS and the bike is so capable, it makes riding quick 'easy'. This builds competence far faster than in does competance.
Then when they have that inevitable 'moment', early on they are usually still riding so far within the machines capabilities, that they 'get away with it'....
First time I rode a ZX6R, was 1998; I came down a twisty road I knew well; Fairly impressed at how it handled, I was taking corners on it significantly faster than I usually did on my tho', but with SO much less effort. But big eye opener was when I rolled off, sat up and 'coasted' to the T-Junction at the end of the road, coming back into built up area. Its about half a mile of straight road, entered from a complex of curves and a crest, and I'd normally come bareling over the brow at something well into three figures, roll off, slow to about 60, then start braking for the junction in the last 100 yards or so.
Did exactly that on the 'six'; looking down at the dial as I rolled off to discover I was doing a clear 20mph more than I expected.... coasted half the way to the junction, and started to brake at my usual braking point, only to find myself virtually STOPPED, a clear 30 yards before the give way line.....
The things just 'respond' on your nerve endings, and that sort of response, means that in that first 'moment', the panic reaction to haul on the brakes, and steer away from danger, the thing will do so, and do it before you have even realised what you have done, and so NOT crash....
Though there are the cases, when folk panic at the sight of a speed camera, and over cook it on the brakes and go sailing through in a cloud of expensive plastic shrapnell!
As a genre; the 600SS's flatter the numpty riders ability like this; lets them believe they can get away with anything, and not encouraging them to up thier game to ride round any inadequecies, or merely soft edges at the limits of the bike's capabilities, never giving any indication that there IS any limit to the bikes capability, the DAS Newbie on these things NEVER gets any better a rider than the day they stepped out of the Test Centre with the ink wet on the forms; builds incredible amounts of confidence, very quickly, without the competence to back it up, learns that the bike will apparentky do 'anything' they ask it, AND go fast, on demand, with no effort required, AND 'look after them' when the 'other idiot' does something unexpected to cause them to deviate from high velocity intensions...
And incredibly they can KEEP getting away with it for a very long time.
So many DAS Newbies stepping onto SS6's riding so few miles on so few occassions, keeping the bike as a Sunny-Sunday 'Toy', can take three four five years, before they actually get completely 'blase' or actually do enough miles to encounter something that really challenges them.
But then; more experienced riders explain these things, and doesn't make a jot of difference; big attraction in these bikes is the 'taming of the beast', and the more 'wild' we make them sound, more appealing they become; and when the DAS Newbie gets on one and finds out how 'easy' it is to go quick on them, merely means that THEY must have all the raw natural talent to master the thing straight out the crate, confirming thier distorted ideas that they had 'it' all along and that those years in a box, and mucking about on tiddlers, DID 'equip' them to handle it.... becouse so far, they are.
I started in School-Boy Trials; I've been riding over thirty years. On of the first things I was told by some-one far more experienced than I was at the time, was 'Before you try going quick, learn to go slow; ANY idiot can go fast, just takes big hand-full of throttle and even bigger measure of foolishness; master going slow, and you'll learn the skills to go faster, and survive'. Thirty years on, and I have survived.
and I have STILL not 'mastered' riding slow, despite credible club placings and the odd class 'win'.
And fast, I discovered a very long time ago, isnt really all THAT exiting, especially when it's not that hard to do.
Stirling Moss once said that 200mph down the Mulsane straight wasn't all that thrilling, it was the corner at the end..... and a 60mph corner taken at 60mph was no more exiting than a 50mph corner taken at 50mph...... exiting was a 30mph corner taken at 31mph.....
ZX6R turns 60mph corners into 90mph corners...... but doesn't give you the chance to try taking them at 91.....
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Slacker24seve... |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Slacker24seve...
World Chat Champion
Joined: 10 May 2010
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| mossi123uk |
This post is not being displayed .
|
mossi123uk
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| ClockworkJesu... |
This post is not being displayed .
|
ClockworkJesu...
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Quornholio |
This post is not being displayed because the poster has bad karma. Unhide this post / all posts.
|
Quornholio
World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| swampy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
swampy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 16:40 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Paulington wrote: | Given the fact you are doing DAS, and as you've been driving a car that amount of time I am taking a bit of a guess as to your age, but if I am right...
YOU, and people YOUR age are the HIGHEST RISK GROUP for dying on a motorcycle, want to know why? It's because, they think:
"Hey, I'm a bit older now, a bit wiser, I've always wanted a motorbike so I will go do my DAS."
Then, at some point they also think to themselves:
"Yeah, I've got great skills, I've been driving a car for 10+ years and I rode 125s in a field when I was younger, yeah, that's brilliant."
So they think they are automatically qualified to go out and buy a supersports. They do so, and within six months they come off and either pile themselves into a car or a stationary object and break themselves dead because they over-estimate their capabilities about a hundredfold.
Why do you even want a supersports first off? They do nothing but go quick and corner fast, they aren't as comfy as other bikes, they can't carry anything without buying extras, their tyres are more expensive, anything that breaks is more expensive, when you drop it you will ruin the fairings and that will costs hundreds of pounds to fix and the list goes on etc etc.
You would go much better to start on a bike with slightly less (not a whole lot less) powerful but much more new-rider friendly, such as a Honda Hornet, like these:
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/$%28KGrHqR,!k4E6FC+9WqTBOidMe!vn!~~_12.JPG.
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjgyWDEwMjQ=/$%28KGrHqMOKnQE5JfGZ9YRBOkWCRBZCw~~60_12.JPG.
The first picture is a 2001 Hornet, you can pick up 2000-2004 Hornets in fantastic condition for £1500-£2000 and the insurance will be around £450 FULLY COMP instead of bloody TPO! They will do 0-60 in around the same time as the ZX6R and near the same top speed but you are much less likely to do it as due to the lack of wind protection it's harder.
The second picture is a 2008 Hornet, you can pick these up for £3000-£3500 as they are newer and look sportier, insurance will be around the same as above, maybe a tiny bit more and the performance is exactly the same as above also really, both bikes will keep up with 600 sports bikes on the roads no problem until you start hitting 130mph and when will you be doing that?
Also, you say you aren't a speed freak so you won't be going fast a lot, those bikes are really comfy for long journeys and great for pillions should you want to carry one and they hold their value very, very well so when you come to sell it in a little whiles time, you will get the value you paid for it pretty much and for almost no cost, you will have gained a LOT of valuable experience with a lot less risk, if you drop a Hornet you will get a few scratches and a bent lever or two which costs almost nothing to replace instead of a bill around £1000 for fairing replacement and all the other damage you'll get on a sports bike.
Go to a bike dealership, sit on some new and second hand bikes and see what feels best for you when you are sat on it, I had my eyes on a bike when I was just passing my test, went to buy one cash in hand and when I sat on it I HATED it, instead my Dad pointed me towards another and I loved it, same power, same speed just a different bike.
As Teflon-Mike said, that ZX6R is far too expensive anyway, there are loads out there much cheaper so he's trying to have you anyway and I doubt you've driven a car that even comes remotely close to the performance of a 600 Supersports, they are a different world. You are a newbie when it comes to bikes (and so am I really, only been riding three years, still lots to learn!) but an overconfident person thinking they have enough experience and skills to ride a 600 supersports combined with actually owning one is a recipe for a horrible disaster.
Best of luck with your test, I am glad you are confident but overconfidence can be just as bad as nerves for making you fail your test.
Cheers! ! |
Isn't your post somewhat undermined by the fact you had a pretty serious off on your supersports 600 3x weeks after passing your test ?
And as I recall had at least one other off in your first year of riding ?
Giving examples of what can happen might be a bit better than getting on your high horse wouldn't you say ?
____________________
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson
"Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death..." Hunter S Thompson |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| crackfinder |
This post is not being displayed .
|
crackfinder
Crazy Courier
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Karma :
|
| Posted: 18:49 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Alex A |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Alex A
World Chat Champion
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 20:38 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| Alex A wrote: | Claimed BHP.
Look at dynos online and the 1998-2002 comes out at about 90, the 636 about 100, and the very latest models just about 110. |
CLAIMED bhp?
Symantics; but a 'claim' is a proposition which may be disputed. I could ';Claim' my CB750 'must' have 200bhp, becouse I fitted an after market pipe. Means its 'untrested'. Manufacturers power figures are 'Quoted', that is the power rating that they state that the engine has. and they will almost always have evidence of empoirical measurement to support that 'quote'. Others may measure the same engine and get different measurements, and those would be 'Measured' power results.
I recall that the press made a big thing of the ZX6R in '98 being the 'first' (production) 600 to break the 100bhp barrier. One I rode was one of the first off the ship; mate had pre-bought at the NEC Show in December, and actually went to Bristol on the train, with the number-plate and paperwork in a back-pack to collect it, and soon as it had cleared customs, had to ride it straight to the nearest Kawsaki dealers for 'pre-delivery' inspection!
Anyhow; power figures are something of a minefield of dispute and argument. But I tend to go with manufacturers quoted specification, as the more reliable, where ever possible.
POWER is an imaginary commodity. It is NOT something you can hold, touch, taste, smell, hear or feel. Its a 'rate', specifically the rate of energy transfer, and like the rate on your credit card, you dont see, or touch 30% you PAY however many £'s per month.
And measuring power is an awkward business. It dont exist, for a start off so you cant 'measure' it. You measure the real quantifiable units of force and time and distance, and CALCULATE the power rate from them.
Lots of people ramble on for hours about the stuff, but not many of them have actually much real idea what they are talking about and even fewer actually run a dynometer, and even of those, not MANY have done more than strap a bike on the machine and read off a number from the screen a computer has 'calculated'; for them.
When it comes to power figures, I know, becouse I have run brake dynometer and done the calculations to work out power rates, manually, that the accuracies and inconsistancies can be huge. But what is important is 'comparability' and 'reliability'.
Ie: if you run an engine up on a Dyno, twenty times, how close the values you get each time are. If you run the same engine up on twenty different dyno's, how close together the values you get are.
Thats the reliability.
Comparability is; if you get a reading off one dyno for one engine, how comparable those readings are to another engine run up on another dyno.
There are two main types of dynometer;
'brake force' dyno's, that put a 'load' onto the engine and measure the torque reaction, the engine held at constant throttle and constant rpm.
The 'Inertial' Dynometer; uses a flywheel of a known moment of inertia and measures how fast the engine accelerates that 'fixed load' through rpm range.
Both give valid power measurements, but the inertial dynometer, measuring the transient state is hugely unreliable due to pottential lag effects and real time measuring frequencies.
You then have Engine brakes, and chassis brakes. Or dynometers that measure power taken from the engine at the crank-shaft (engine brake) or at the driven wheel(s) (chassis brake).
Engine brakes, only measuring the power on the crank-shaft, without any losses in the transmission, or error caused by tyre deformation or slip, again tend to be the more reliable and repeatable.
BUT; figures can easily be 'fudged' either which way.
Society of American Engineers (SAE... where the vioscocity index for your engine oil, as in SAE 10w40 etc comes from) aprox 1968, changed thier standard for Automotive power-measurement, calling for manufacturers 'claimed' power readings to be taken with ALL 'normal' ancilliary equipment.....
one of the reasons for the american Auto-Insustries agreed 'ban' on power advertising....
up till that point they had been running engines up on an engine brake, without alternators, the ignition powered from a mains transformer, the water-pump removed, cooling provided by plumbing the bottom hose into the mains water supply, and top to a drain..... (saving pumping losses and the drag of a cooling fan!) While they could, and often did, save the pumping losses of the oil pump, and drag of crank sloshing around in the sump, running the lubrication 'total loss' on a gravity feed!
The Dynamo on a 60bhp Mini engine, can absorb 4bhp... about 3Kw, for the 500W or so of electricity it provides.... very poor conversion efficiency, though to be honest most of it is wasted in the 'V' belt turning it......
On the American Muscle cars, the voluntary advertising agreement, saved the makers from having to admit, that the 200- 300+ bhp they were claiming from thier big V8 engines, after powering the big alternators, water pump, and large fixed fan, and then such 'normal' equipment as the power steering pump and air conditioning, were actually delivering probably half the 'quoted' power.
BUT that is why we have 'Standards' to impose 'fair tests' conditions, and make readings 'comparable'.
And a big contention in power reading is the practice of 'back motoring'. DIN standard used to rely on this heavily, and its the practice of measuring the power to DRIVE the engine, without it running to measure the power losses at any given speed, and then adding those onto power readings.
Gives same effect as American makers testing engines without ancilliaries.... more even same as measuring withot, conrods, crank-shafts, camshafts or cam drives! Its equating the power to that made at the piston tops!
Playing 'The Standards Game' possible to get pretty much any BHP figure you like, choosing the most flattering test regime...
We can presume, with some degree of certainty that the manufacturers, when they test their engines do so, and that they will, near enough be all using the most flattering test standard they can, and that thier numbers, whatever they are, and how outrageuose they may be, are all equally 'inflated'....
Take one of thier products and measure the power you actually get, at the back wheel, almost certain you will get something completely different, and compared to their 'flattered' figure, rather disappointing.
90bhp rear wheel bhp, on an inertial dyno, for an engine manufacturers claim 100bhp for, is pretty much par, disparities can be in the order of 30% or more.
However, independent, usually inertial dynometers, the readings are a lot less reliable, and same bike might vary from as much as 85bhp to 95bhp on the same Dynometer on different runs, on the same day!
And that is before any software is used to get 'corrected' figures, using 'fudge factors' to bump the figures up to numbers more 'like' the factory claims.... often done with back-motoring, or as often, from a database of back motoring values for 'similar' machines... adding on arbitary numbers and using multipliers 'scaling corrections' to get something that CAN and often is utterly meaninless and as far as the numbers are concerned, a complete fiction of what the actually tested engine's really is doing....
So ultimately, for accademic comparison, and any reliability in those accademic comparisons; I go with Manufacturers quoted figures.
They tend to be inflated, but all tend to be inflated by the same amount, and they are reasonably reliable, and repeatable, and to be 'supportable' they tend to either have been done by independent, impartial test houses to recognised standards, or done in house, with transparent verification to recognised standards, where they dont have quite such room for huge discrepancy, as the bloke in a speed shop working a Dyno-Jet inertial roller, strapping the bike down and reading a screen off a computer doing all the calculations, and adding fudge factors to customers preference....
And when it comes to THIS particular bike; that ONE figure, the 90, 95, 100, 105, 118, or even 180, that may be it's 'peak' power out-put.... some-where, some-how.... of an imaginary commodity, in some-ones imagination...... is but a TINY bit of the picture.
The power of a Ninja is academic. peak power is only made at peak power revs, throttle wide open, bike under load, in a steady state situation, traveling at constant speed.
It means very little, in the greater scheme of things. Most important thing is the power curve, and how the engine responds in the transient state, and how much 'AVAILABLE' power it has accross the rev range..... or taking it a step further, the THRUST that can produce in any gear, at any speed, at the rear wheel..... further STILL, the effect that thrust has on a vehicle of that mass.....
Ninja has a significantly 'peaky' power delivery. Charecter of the engine, puts the power it has high up the rev range. To get at the power you have to rev the thing. If you dont, the response you get is quite limpid...
Lets compare it to a Pan European.... that's about as powerful, but almost twice the weight and twice the capacity...... that has a much more tractable nature, it probably makes a lot more force at the rear wheel a lot more often, and across a lot more of the rev range..... but in a heavier chassis, it doesn't respond to the throttle the same way, more of that force needed to make same degree of acceleration.
And, without the contrast between being in the power band or not, it doesn't FEEL so 'limpid' using, the lower revs, even though on a Ninja, the area it feels more limpid, quite possible that there's actually more thrust available!
I'd not have too many qualms sticking a newbie onto a 100bhp Pan-Euro, or even a 120bhp CBR100F, or any number of other, big, powerful, but 'soft' natured machines.
Becouse its NOT the numbers that matter..... its the charecter.
ZX6 is optimised for 'fast'. The power delivery urges you to use the higer revs and go fast, and discourages riding slow, by giving that contrast and feeling limpid and unresponsive when you dont.
Add that to its basic competence, doing 'fast', you have a bike that is a newbie killer, for all the reasons I have mentioned; it flatters fools, and massages ego's. For an expert rider, who has more experience and more points of reference to apreciate what the bike is doing for them, its a more suitable machine, but can still be a killer, for the very same reasons! No one is infalliuble or immune to the red mist. But a newbie, with very little else to judge it by, chances are SO slim.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| crackfinder |
This post is not being displayed .
|
crackfinder
Crazy Courier
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:09 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| ClockworkJesu... |
This post is not being displayed .
|
ClockworkJesu...
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:21 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
Even moreso then.
My point was, was that a commuter bike restricted to 33Bhp still had some amazing tug - at least to a newbie like me. Let alone 110(-/+)Bhp at the hands of a newbie.
The restricted GS500 is about 174KGs, I think. Restricted to 33Bhp, that's 198Bhp per tonne. That's a lot of power.
The unrestricted GS500 has something more like 300Bhp per tonne.
And the ZX6R has something closer to 570Bhp per tonne.
I think a lot of people going from cars to bike see "600cc" and automatically think it can't have all that much power.  JMO though.
Not sure I'd want to pass my driving test, and then jump into a 600Bhp/tonne racing car. Why do it on a bike? |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| crackfinder |
This post is not being displayed .
|
crackfinder
Crazy Courier
Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Karma :
|
| Posted: 22:13 - 20 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| ClockworkJesus wrote: | Even moreso then.
My point was, was that a commuter bike restricted to 33Bhp still had some amazing tug - at least to a newbie like me. Let alone 110(-/+)Bhp at the hands of a newbie.
The restricted GS500 is about 174KGs, I think. Restricted to 33Bhp, that's 198Bhp per tonne. That's a lot of power.
The unrestricted GS500 has something more like 300Bhp per tonne.
And the ZX6R has something closer to 570Bhp per tonne.
I think a lot of people going from cars to bike see "600cc" and automatically think it can't have all that much power. JMO though.
Not sure I'd want to pass my driving test, and then jump into a 600Bhp/tonne racing car. Why do it on a bike? |
lol I see what you're saying
____________________
Yamaha FZS600 Fazer (gone but not forgotten). Current - Kawasaki ZX6R A1P |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
Posted: 23:05 - 20 Oct 2011  Post subject: |
|
|
| ClockworkJesus wrote: |
I think a lot of people going from cars to bike see "600cc" and automatically think it can't have all that much power. JMO though.
Not sure I'd want to pass my driving test, and then jump into a 600Bhp/tonne racing car. Why do it on a bike? |
| crackfinder wrote: | lol I see what you're saying |
Back the 'Charecter' thing; a modern GP car with all the electronic traction control aids, is, aparently very easy to drive, and on a dry track, do so very quickly.
A modern WRX rally car, is not quite the wild beast of yore; and fact so many are driven as every day exec saloons sort of shows.
Old Porshe 911 has a lot less power, and probably as much weight, but by comparison is a real 'Drivers Car' becouse of the involvement it demands balencing the perverse weight distribution and nervouse steering geometry, and working the clunky heavy gearbox, clutch and steering.
You could pass your car test and jump straight intro a modern Polo hot hatch, and it wouldn't be much more unforgiving, in fact in many respects, less than jumping into a base model Saxo, and trying to drive that a bit quick. Jump behind the wheel of a Subaru? Lot of power to get you into trouble in a hurry if you dont excersize a bit of restraint, but, charecter of the beast is still pretty forgiving. Get a modern 911.... another drivers car, only where old 1972 model will let you know from the moment you clamber in, it needs some respect, and demand effort from you, and give you a lot of early warning its likely to 'bite back', modern carerra 4..... traction control, four wheel drive, air conditioned luxuary, will cosset you, and make you feel at home right from the off, and its driving aids will keep you on track, well past your competence, and it will keep on doing its thing, right up to the point it doesn't, and teh first time you realise something is wrong is when you watch hedges spinning past the side windows like you are on a fair ground ride doing a pirouette...
Difference on a bike, you dont have to spend thirty grand to get something that 'specialised'; and soft bit on the outside.... when it bites back you aren't piruetting with the panel work first to meet hard unyeilding objects......
Power, power to weight, top speed, acceleration, they are all 'aspects' of performance, but it REALLY is nothing to do with any performance capacity, its all down to the 'charecter' of the beast. Car, or Bike, and 'how' it works, how engaging it is, how involved you are in riding it, and how much 'feed-back' it gives you as to whats going on, but as importantly, how much of that feed-back, if any you can understand, recognise, interpret and respond to.
Bikes like the ZX6 that dont offer very much feedback to begin with, don't give you much to work with, hence aren't so involving, and not involving and engaging with you, what can they teach you?
Be like having a beutiful, sexy, woman, better still, a mute who never ever complains or grumbles.... idylic untill they get pissed off at you clipping your toe nails in the living room..... and expressing thier annoyance at such misdemeanor by running you through with a carving knife.
Slightly less sexy woman that grumbles and complains at every bludy thing..... might not be so easy to live with, BUT you learn pretty soon what not to do if you don't want ear ache, and find where joy may be be found, and even when you do piss her off, which you inevitably will..... you get a week of silent treatment and microwave dinners, and a chance to make up, and have a romantic meal out!
Yes, does depend on the individual; whether they could cope with a bike like the ZX6 as thier first big-bike, and whether they have the restraint or fear not to push thier luck with it. Point of a ZX6 though is speed, and if you are afraid of it, or simply dont use it, rather pointless..... Bit like Porshe 911 ... that has become what it has, becouse of people that dont 'use' it and simply want the cudos of owning them, and to some degree, ZX6 and 'Blade, amongst other ways have gone a similar way, becoming 'softer'... thoiugh slightly less prenounced!
So back to start, and the ZX6 isn't a brilliant newbie bike..... could get away with one as a newbie bike, but newbie that does get away with it, more likely to get more from something different.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| mossi123uk |
This post is not being displayed .
|
mossi123uk
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
Karma :
|
| Posted: 22:57 - 26 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :
|
| Posted: 00:39 - 27 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
|
|
| mossi123uk wrote: | https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201140419361362/sort/priceasc/usedbikes/page/2/quicksearch/true/radius/20/postcode/s640jz?logcode=p
how about this for a first bike then? |
Its the DAS bike of choice for a lot of Bike-Schools..... what does that tell you?
Its a very 'Sensible' choice of first bike, or first big bike. They are a little more demanding of maintenence than other 500's, curtecy of dated design, but in recompense eminantly DIY maintainable.
Not the most inspiring bike in the 500(ish) twin, commuter catagory; its one of the least powerful at 45bhp, but makes up for that by being one of the more 'nimble'.
And, it IS a bike you are likely to 'out-grow' or get bored of, fairly quickly, as most of the class alternatives.
BUT, likely true of almost any more considerate 'first bike', ent going to be a forever-bike, and this one? Well, you could do an awful lot worse!
And at THAT price? Its cheap. VERY cheap. I'm synical of the 'bargain', and selling a newbie bike, very easy to flog a dog, hyping the 'bargain' to some-one with more enthusiasm than experience... BUT, prepare for the worst, hope for the best..... go in with eyes open, temper enthusiasm and go over it with fine tooth comb, doing usual buyer checks of V5 against engine and frame numbers, not just VIN tag; look for evidence of crash damage, check for obviouse abuse, & neglect, and anticipate having to fix a few 'small' niggles shorty after purchase, could be 'OK'....
And what the heck. If you completely stack it; probably less than price of genuine Kawasaki failring panel for ZX6, certainly less than half decent respray.... & if you have to chuck it away in a year, becouse its completely kaput, you'd probably get fair enough chunk back on scrap value!
Worth persuing, anyway.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 14 years, 301 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.32 Sec - Server Load: 0.45 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 171.99 Kb
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating