Which type of bike/engine is for me?

[JonnyFoxtrot]

Ok so I know this is very subjective and dependant on loads of different factors but I'm currently in an awkward position where the amount of time I've held my licence (just over a year) and my age (22) mean its really difficult to take bikes for test rides and actually find out for myself.

I'm currently riding a 636 B1H ZX6R and while I love riding it and its been a joy to own for the past year, I notice I'm starting to get a bit bored of the power delivery and I'm looking to change bikes early next year so looking for ideas. Please bear in mind that I'm talking purely acceleration feel, the Ninja is brilliant in the twisties and I make full use of using it in them (well at least to the best of my capability, but I'm certainly not slow).

The only other bikes I've ridden are 500 twins like my GS500E (and the ER5 from my test) and the current ZX6R I4 and I'm interested to know what peoples opinions are on the feel of an engine (setup and size) and whether I would be better pursuing something different.

I love the feel of a sudden rush of acceleration and I've heard people describe V-Twins and the triumpth 3 cylinder's being a lot like. The type of instant torquey pull your eyes into the back of your skull rush which you seem to get from things like turbo engines or two strokes when you hit the power band. While the 636 is undoubtedly quick and has plenty of acceleration it feels a bit too drawn out as I'm constantly having to be 10k+ revs and wringing its neck. It also means I end doing triple figures to get that same rush, because of the range of high revving power.

Is this a problem for all straight 4's? Or would moving up to a I4 1000cc (I've got my eye on 06-07 fireblades) bring back that instant torque that I4 600's seem to lack. Would a V-Twin or a 3cylinder (also been looking at Speed Triples) have a better rush of acceleration and also mean I'm not doing obscene speeds to get that rush? Or is it all just in my head and I should stop moaning and start appreciating the I4 600 a bit more?

Opinions/advice/flames please
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'89 Honda NS125F (SOLD) -> '92 Suzuki GS500E (SOLD) -> '03 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H (SOLD) -> '96 VFR 750 RC36 (SOLD) -> '02 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird

[P.addy]

Try an 06 GSXR1000 or try one of the sporty v twins TL1000R/RSV.

GSXR was a lazy mans bike, but went like stink in every gear and you dont even realise you are sitting at 150 on the motorway

[Atomic Punk]

High my first post on here.

If you don't mind losing a bit of top end speed and acceleration is the only thing your after, a cheeper alternative to buying a new bike is to up the rear sproket by a couple of teeth or the front one down one.
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[Rowey]

I had a go on the first of the 1050 speed triples. It definitely felt grunty. The lack of fairing also gave the sensation that you were going a lot faster than your were, keeping the speeds down.

I'm yet to have a go on the new squinty speed triple but have heard that it's a much better bike.
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Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

[woo]

Down gearing is not a cheaper alternative as your bike ends up drinking more petrol I noticed that with my 04 R1

You sound a bit like me want that torque feeling without have to work hard.

I am on a 00 R1 and will never go back to anything smaller than a 1000cc bike, I simply love being lazy and just slighty open the throttle and have instant torque!

As for twisties and B roads, I am as slow as heck to much uncertainies on those roads and I love admiring the beautiful countryside.

Most sports 1000cc will statisfy your urge whether it be a twin or IL4

No matter what they do to a 600 it will always be gutless in the low rev range.
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[Kickstart]

Hi

With down gearing, it is similar and cheaper to just sit in a lower gear instead.

To the OP, to me it sounds like what you actually do like is the power delivery of the sports 600s, with a good shove at certain revs as it comes on cam. Just that you are finding the speed required to get that fun is a bit high. I suspect you might find a twin / triple worse as you will likely lose this kick at high revs. Ie, the 675 triples produce much the same top end as the 4s but have more midrange.

All the best

Keith
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[JonnyFoxtrot]

Cheers all, decent advice as per.

I'm thinking I'll probably pursue a more modern thou, seeing as I've had my heart set on an 07 fireblade for sometime.

Its shit that its so difficult to get test rides nowadays otherwise I'd be finding out for myself!!
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'89 Honda NS125F (SOLD) -> '92 Suzuki GS500E (SOLD) -> '03 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H (SOLD) -> '96 VFR 750 RC36 (SOLD) -> '02 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird

[Daimo]

Deffo stay away from the small 600 SS. You need to wind it up to get it going, and by the time your in the rev range which will give the surge you want, your already well into license loosing speeds.

I'll be biased, I'll say a triple. I've had IL4, and V's and its still by far my favourite engine.

Its not quite got the low down torque of a twin, it comes on song a little later, and its not quite top the top end rush of an IL4 (thinking 600 here), but its somewhere in the middle. You can pootle along at 4000rpm odd, open it up, and it'll instantly go, where as a twin will pull from a lower rpm. But when your getting a hustle on, it'll hold its powerband and revs better than the twin, but not quite give the rush of the IL4 as its gets up the top end of the rev range.

IMO, for road riding, its bloody great, you can enjoy plodding along, but also have USEABLE power in the middle revs. You can feel the surge before your into license loosing speeds.

I really dont know why more manufactures have a triple option, for the road its a fantastic engine.

I'll be biased obviously, but thats why i own a triple. A 675 has a much better powerband (for the road) than an IL4, but the bigger the triple, the more torque and power you get, and more fun in the process.

I would definatly be looking at either a big lazy twin, or a big fun triple. Either that, or a IL4 1000cc, but then thats warp speed, 100mpg in 1st gear, and an instant license looser.

Ultimatly, an IL4 will be faster on track your at top revs all the time, but for those brief few seconds getting out of corners, the triple will have the edge over a SS600 as it doesn't need winding up.

I like IL4 1000cc's, but I really really dont need it for the road, i'll loose my license within seconds, but they are mentally fast, and just have power everywhere in the rev range

[Kickstart]

[stonesie]

Just get a busa and have done with it

[willis1337]

Sounds like you'll enjoy a 1000cc IL4 sports bike (any one really they're all good). I had a GSXR1000K8 and it was great fun, my only gripe was touring / luggage ability, it could be done but not easily / comfortably. I've now got a BMW K1300S, had it since June, it's a good compromise but I do miss the sheer POWER of a full on sports bike. I will have one again but as a second bike (finance and storage permitting). Defo get a 1000, you will not regret it (but it'll be expensive at your age for insurance). Do be very aware of how easily you can get to silly speeds though, otherwise you will not be enjoying it for long.

Re reading your original post, suggest you try to get a kick out of doing things smoothly and perfectly, rather than full on acceleration. The 1000 will pull hard in any gear instantly. You can pin it in 1st and get v close to 3 figures as you hit the red line (if you can hang on), but as you've only been riding a little while I would say concentrate on getting smoother rather than faster, at all speeds, slow and quick.

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

Sounds like you have your heart set on a 1000cc IL Four anyway so you may as well get one.

They won't offer a thrill at any lower speeds IMO, the speeds will be even higher to get the same thrill. If you want that thrill at a lower, you're probably better off with a V-Twin thou, or one of the new breed of performance nakeds.

In my experience of the Mille it really gave you a boot when you pinned it, but it only had 120 od bhp, but you'd still be going rather briskly at the same time.

O, and it always amuses me when people say they aren't slow. You've been riding a year. Unless you're a god, you're still slow. I'm still slow. We're all slow. Unless you're racing at the TT. You're slow.
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[Jim Mc]

Keep us informed, i am very interested in a blade for the same reason. But I like how light my current bike is as i park down a dead end which is quite narrow and think i'd find it difficult to ewey a heavier bike. Also is your performance reduced on the twisties or filtering. Only other thing is im not a massive fan of the fireblade colour schemes, although I prefer the shape to any of the other litre bikes.

I quite like the RSV factory, but gather the electrics are not as reliable as the jap bikes.

[HD]

[temeluchus]

[Teflon-Mike]

I'm tending to agree with Keith here; what you describe enjoying is the hard power delivery coming in at the top end of the ZX6, it is by a long shot NOT an unpowerful bike.

To get that kind of 'surge' you would have to go to a litre bike or muscle bike, but they wont have the contrast, in the power delivery that makes it so prenounced when the bike hits the power ramp.

To get more of that 'surge' you would want to go to a smaller engine, in higher state of tune..... tall order, not a lot out there IS much more highly tuned! And what is, makes less power!

Thinking Aprillia RS250 here....... think you ought to try one. The raucouse two stroke 'power band' surfing is sort of what you are describing enjoying, and thats a bike which will deliver it, in full wide screen drama, having bog all mass to shift with it, and at slightly less loopy velocities..... thouigh only VERY slighltly less!

Alternatively; pure muscle bike' something like an XJR1300, which has an engine probably no more poweful than what you got, and no power ramp what so ever, just tractor like 'grunt' from tick-over, and the sort of surge you get on the 'six' as it comes on the cam, but delivered like an aircraft carriers steam catapult, every-frigging-where..... which MAY be different enough to endear itself to you.

R1 or 'Blade, I think you will find dissapointing; I dont think you'd 'feel' they deliver what you expect, and give the same 'feel' as your six, but in bigger measure; with less dramatic power delivery, and much higher speed capability, in every day use, you are likely to feel cheated, becouse they DONT deliver the dramatic surge you hope for.

Torque Twins..... I think might be closer; light weight, they are pretty responsive; engines are in a fairly high state of tune, and can have a more dramatic power delivery, but over narrower and lower rev range, where the bigger torque figures and light weight will make them feel like they are ripping your arms off, in the way the Six doesn't... but running out of puff earlier, and not holding that surge so hard so long, I suspect it would be a short term buzz, that quickly leaves you wanting.

ZX6 is what zx6 is, though. Its a bike that delivers easy 'fast'.

As you say, great in the twisties, and wonderful feeling when it gets into its stride and starts howling; but its a very unengaging and undemanding bike to ride..... Left me absolutely stone cold after test ride, and apart from the 'jeez this things quick!' has worn off.... ultimatley NOT a 'fun' bike to ride!

Seriousely; when I thought about it, I concluded it was about as much 'fun' to ride as my Granda 2.0l Auto 'slug' of a car was to drive... it just did everything for you, and did what IT wanted, not what you necessarily WANTED....

I rode a full power seven speed Mito, on the same road, not long after, and I got of, ok, precicelly I stumbled off, that annoying little tiddler, grinning like a cheshire cat, asking owner how much he wanted for it! (Bastard wouldn't sell it to me!) It was, for all its miserly 27bhp, over about a 200rpm rev range! Everything I EXPECTED the 'Six' to be, but wasn't.

And it was ALL sown to the fact that the Mito made me WORK and work bludy hard to make it do, well anything, really! I have no idea how quick or not I was going, like I did on the six; I was too busy working the gears, and judging the road, to keep that motor spinning, and not waste a single mph or rpm.....

Didn't deliver the shear blinding acceleration of the six, when it came on the pipe, but delivered even greater 'sensation' of speed, mainly from the hedgrows blurring in tunnel vision, concentrating so hard!

Not an every day bike though, and thought behind the RS,250, which is same sort of charecter, but more so. And suggested becouse both have the same charecter traits of the ZX6, but in bigger measure, even more narrowly focused than the narrow focused ZX6, emphasised more by being smaller, and more easily 'accessed'.

The six Is a hard act to follow. All motorcycles are a compromise between competing considerations. ZX6 is a very uncompromising motorcycle, the compsomises all pushed into that region where nothing bust easy speed matters. Anything else is going to be a DIFFERENT compromise.

And I think big bore sports will not deliver what you hope for in the compromise it provides.
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[Jim Mc]

The thing is, I wouldn't call the 600 acceleration 'blinding' I'd call it pretty poor until you get up to the 9krpm range like the OP states.

If I'm riding in traffic in 4th or 5th gear, and I see a gap on the opposite side to overtake I know I'd have to switch down two gears and pull out, the bike starts screaming and then you've got the issue and scaring the shit out of everyone just for a simple overtake, bike is revving its tits off and you now have to change back up to merge into the traffic again, you'll only be doing 40-50. Whereas I'd like a litre bike so I can just twist and go, have the grunt to get past without waking up all the neighbours, accelerate sharply for a brief second and then ease it off straight away to merge back in. I just want raw power available.

And I appreciate the comment on 10kg's, however I do notice the difference in my bike between the tank being full or nearly empty, and we're only talking 10-20kgs there, I suppose it depends where the centre of gravity is in the bike, as long as the weight it kept low then it should be fine.

[JonnyFoxtrot]

Cheers for all the advice guys top stuff as per.

I've been reading up loads since I posted and I think I'm coming to the conclusion of a Speed Triple 1050. Seems to tick all the boxes! Pure rush of instant speed at any range and all without doing ridiculous speeds and all while remaining comfy.

Going to try and hunt down somewhere that will let me test ride and see what I can decide once I've had some arse time (ooh-err) and shall report back!
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'89 Honda NS125F (SOLD) -> '92 Suzuki GS500E (SOLD) -> '03 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H (SOLD) -> '96 VFR 750 RC36 (SOLD) -> '02 Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird

[JonnyFoxtrot]