Chinese bikes are essential evils.

[BIKEVIDDER]

Had one for 3 years to commute when money was scarce.
If it wasn't for cheap Chinese bikes many might not get into bikes at all.
Wages worth less through inflation, rising cost of living, lack of jobs & the cost of getting a bike licence rocketing.
Insurance cheaper than a car but still high for learners.
The cost of a new 125 from Honda Yamaha etc.
Chinese bikes are an essential evil to help the future of biking.
Young learners can afford them, commuters decide to sell the car for a cheap to run bike etc etc.
Regardless of quality, vfm, reliability.
Chinese bikes are a doorway for new bikers.
It looks to me, over the years, less bikes are on the road, sure the sunny sunday roads are full of bikes but in general bikes as cheap transport for the masses has diminished and teenagers see a cheap small car as first transport the way to go.
Regardless of personal opinions about them, are they the future of new bikers joining us ??
____________________
GROWING OLD DISGRACFULLY

[WannaBeDude]

No.
...................................................................................................................
____________________
Jogging on, destination living.

[yambabe]

Depends.

Some of them are still absolute shite in terms of build quality but some of them are starting to get that under control now (Lexmoto and Pulse aren't too bad these days).

If you see them as a vehicle for life you are going to be disappointed, but if you see them as a cheap form of transport that will more or less be disposable at the end of a few years then they are fine.

Not sure if I would describe them as the "future of biking" though. Apart from Hyosung (who are Korean anyway) they still haven't managed to provide an even half-decent bike bigger than a 250 and I personally don't think the future of 2 wheels lies with 125s and scooters, I think it's going to be standard commuters with good fuel consumption and all the bells and whistles like ABS fitted.

The other thing to remember of course is that back in the 60s when the Japs first entered the market in a major way everybody said they were crap too, wouldn't last, deathtraps, wouldn't be seen dead etc etc. Look at them now..........
____________________
Sod falling in love, I wanna fall in chocolate.

[BIKEVIDDER]

I was thinking in the way a non biker would be looking into getting on the road.
Without a cheap entry level bikes are newbies put off.
Quality, vfm etc is something you find out about once it's too late.
I got mine with knowledge so didn't concern me as I knew what to expect plus I'm looking at it as an experience rider thinking are bikes in decline through less new guys.
____________________
GROWING OLD DISGRACFULLY

[Bezzer]

[G]

[Cheeseybeaner]

[jjdugen]

Friend wanted a cheapo for his lad to get his test done before the new regs. I was looking at CG's even a CZ (!) as being semi indestructable and having some value at the end of his learning curve. He infrmed me he had sprung for one on the Bay, a Huaneo (or something unpronouncable). Took him in the van to pick it up, expecting the very worse. Its the semi 'criuser' version, all I could see wrong were the down pipes that were painted black rather than, I assume, chrome. It started, ran and sounded just fine. Couldnt see much difference to the Jap stuff knocking around and at £300 T+T I cant see any downside. Time will tell on the reliability front, but they live up in the Pennines and its started and run during wet and cold.
I have read all the vitriol poured on these things, lets just see what transpires, for a cheap way into two wheels, they look alright to me.
____________________
The CBR900RR has been sold. Aprilia Falco worms its way into my heart.
Try Soi 23 on Amazon for a good read.... Self promotion? Moi?

[EazyDuz]

The whole price arguement doesnt really hold any ground when you consider the masses of extra money you will fork out for the many, many repairs and replacement parts needed.
____________________
To shreds you say? Tss tss tss

[Blau Zedong]

[jjdugen]

Out come the rose tinted glasses.... The commuter Hondas, 50 / 90 step-thru's were a definite improvement over the Mobylettes and Bantams that working man could afford, but they were very pricey in their day. The 250 whizz bangs were something to behold, until the doubtful electrics (YES, believe me!) left you stranded, or the points slipped just as you were doing your astronomical revs, (want to see my collection of holed pistons?). And then you went to by spares.... Jeez, a weeks wages for a piston!
Oh, and BTW, Honda painted onto bare metal, one winter and it fell off, not to mention the fast corrode alloy.
I cant defend the indefensible of the British bike industry, but their machines did have good finish, could be infinitely repaired (alright, beause they needed constant 'fettling'), but at least you got a solid product.
The Chinese are doing what the Japs did all those yars ago, playing an artificially low exchange rate off aginst European (and Japanese) wage rates. Until the Chinks bring the Houn or whatever its called, into line with world exchange rates you can certainly buy cheap. The chinese are not daft, they will improve what is, after all, a very basic design, its not as if they need to go chasing cutting edge technology. 14 BHP does not need space age technology.
____________________
The CBR900RR has been sold. Aprilia Falco worms its way into my heart.
Try Soi 23 on Amazon for a good read.... Self promotion? Moi?

[Polarbear]

[Blau Zedong]

[MarJay]

There are second hand Japanese bikes that are older and have lots of mileage and have been abused to hell... but they are still a trillion times better than a brand new chinese bike.

Simple. End of thread.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Teflon-Mike]

Idea that the Japanese flooded the market with 'Cheap' low quality 'copies' of euro bikes and killed the British industry is utter tosh.

The British Industry collapsed in a tsumani created by the BSA group going bankrupt. The company was far from lacking in investment & innovation, as often suggested, it was investment and inovation, and rather more than a few management fuck-ups result in their revolving credit exceeding thier overdraft limits and bankers calling 'time'... the rest of the industry started falling in a domino effect afterwards as 'Market Confidence' plumeted, and business's dependant on BSA started to suffer and fail.

The Japanese made, three 'Copy' bikes to my knowledge.

Yamaha were given a licence to make the DKW RT125. It was their first motorcycle, and they were quick to start innovating in the field, applying their musical instrument know-how to fit an 'Atmospheric-Inlet-Valve' to the induction tract, to improve the two stroke engine's trapping efficiency, 'inventing' the reed-valve.

Kawasaki, much later bought a licence to manufacture the BSA A65, an 'experiement' to gain four-stroke technology.

The third one, I cant remember the details; It was one of the smaller Japanese Start-Ups in the early '60's that went bump or was absorbed into probably Suzuki, who made a bike licenced from Harley Davidson, which I think was Harley's idea of a 'budget' model to compete with the then prolific British Imports, and I think it was a single rather like an Matchless, that failed to sell, or never even made it to market.

Through the 50's Britain was exporting 2/3 of its bikes to America. Harley complained that the British Imports were 'stealing' Harley Sales.

At a Senate Committee investigation (or possibly American Magazine Interview); Edward Turner, Director of BSA-Triumph, pointed out that far from harming Harley's domestic sales, BSA-Triumph & the other imports were actually stimulating the market; the cheap 'sporting' bikes interesting riders who would not think to buy a Harley, but increasing the number of motorcyclists, many of whom would move 'up' to a Harley. He quoted US Motorcycle Sales figures for ten years, and while Harley's market share had shrunk, the market itself had increases such that even with a shrinking market share, Harley's sales had grown. He remarked that the Japanese imports starting to enter the US were doing for the British, what the British had done for Harley!

The Japanese Industry grew rapidly, in the wake of WWII 'Reconstruction', the militaristic fudal system, re-structured into corporate fiefdoms intent on ecconomic dominance, rather than militaristic.

Government & Banking incentives to manufacturers who made goods for export, were huge, and the Japanese 'Big-Four' were very quick to create models that would sell in Western, significantly American markets; this demanded products that were 'advanced' as well as competitively priced, and they invested hugely in research & development looking for more 'advanced' products.

The Japanese Bikes of the 60's & 70's were far from low cost copies of western bikes; look at price lists of the era and significantly they were NOT hugely cheaper than western offerings, and in many cases they were more expensive.

Honda's CB450 'Black-Bomber', the first Japanese four-stroke over 350cc, of 1965 was, I believe actually more expensive than a Triumph 500 Trophy, at least on the 'list price'. Though Brit-Bike practice of the era was to list low, then up the invoice price adding such equipment as lights, speedo & tacho, 'duel seat' and pillion footrests etc, as 'optional accessories'. Yet where the 500 Trophy was a pretty 'old-hat' 500 twin with push rod valve train; CB450, came with all equipment as standard and 'advanced' overhead cam-shaft engine; 'exotic' technology seldom found on a twin, and certainly not British ones.

The Japanese bikes WERE critasised for reliability, compared to Brit-Bikes, but it's an unfair comparison. The British bikes were low-tech, and 'user freindly' for mechanics. The Japanese 'technology' was advanced and more akin to that of Italian exotics like Ducati Bevel drive OHC singles, which were JUST as slated for reliability as the Japs, but which often did not have the 'excuse' that the Jap bikes had that a lot of 'poor-reliability' was down to poor user maintenence.

The Chinese imports of the last fifteen years have been a completely different kettle of fish.

They ARE low rent copies of Japanese designs, made with the collusion of the Japanese manufacturers giving them the tooling and setting up joint ventures to make 'old' Japanese designs, for third world markets.

Which is why the ubiquitous CG125 push-rod engine, predominates. That was considered a 'backwards-step' even by Honda themselves when first built, purely as a 'third world' model, in 1976! The alternative, based on Suzuki's OHC GN125 derived engine is hardly a quantum leap from that!

There is little or no 'innovation' in design coming from the Chinese makers, as yet. Any design imporvements that have been made have simply been in cascading 'less' out of date designs from Japan to them.

What 'progress' they have made is in manufacturing technology and quality control, and while some suggest that the Chinese bikes are 'getting better', its very subjective, and I dont actually see it.

The 'better' chinese branded bikes have always been 'Not so Bad', but it's been on the back of Japanese and European Quality Control being applied.

The Chinese 'generic branded' bikes have been pretty dire, on the whole, and remain so.

The ones that might be aplauded for 'getting better' would appear to be the ones 'selected' and better screened by European distributors, attempting to build a more 'reputable' and lasting 'Brand'.

Forty years ago; bikes were the 'cheap' alternative to a car. As utiliterian means of transport, buyers actually WANTED robust, low tech machines that they could service and maintain themselves. Little point buying a 'cheap' biye to pay an expensive mechanic to look after it for you.

In my life-time, this segment of the market has significantly died out, with cars becoming ever cheaper.

Meanwhile, motorcycles have become ever more sophisticated, but at the same time, more acutely 'product engineered' to lower maintenence requirements.

In the 1960's you bought a BSA becouse it would 'Last a Life Time'.... given enough loving maintenence.

In this century, you buy a Honda becouse it will last ten years, without you having to look at its guts, and when it breaks, you throw it away and buy another.

The trouble with Chinese bikes, is that they do not have modern virtues of 'sealed for life' dependability, but selling in the west to people that expect it.

But worse, thier low show-room price, works against them. Being 'so cheap', it doesn't take many 'problems' for the ecconomics of high western labour rates, to correct the low standards of the cheap chinese labour that built them, to outway their 'value', and make them 'beyond ecconomic repair'.

They ARE a doorway for new riders.... but unfortunately the door goes both ways!

Biking has seen a ressurgance in the last twenty years, and rider numbers have increased hugely in the last ten.

By the value of bike sales; the biggest growth has been in the 'big-bike' sectors with more and more riders taking up, or returning to biking as a leisure persuit.

By numbers, the biggest growth has been in the small bike market, significantly learner legals, and more significantly scooters.

BUT, where twenty years ago, we converted probably one in three, maybe one in five, 'Learners' to qualified motorcyclists, moving up to bigger bikes, NOW we capture probably less than 1 in 10.

Sort of suggests, that for every-one coming in the door, more are having a look round and walking back out again, than are hanging around!

Chinese bikes, and dissolusionment in them cant be the ONLY reason, but it is a significant one.

Congestion charging, high fuel prices, and punative young driver insurance premiums, plus more expensive and more difficult licence testing all contribute.

Learner Legals are cheap and easy way to get about; and we HAVE seen a huge increase in 'perpetual L-Platers' people riding for perhaps five or six years on L-Plates taking more than two CBT's to avoid testing and moving up. Basically waiting it out, until they are old enough to insure a car, or using a scooter to beat bus-fares.

With increased numbers of 'non-enthusiast' riders its not really surprising we have a higher drop out rate. But we could hope that a few of them might have thier enthusiasm 'stimulated' and we convert a few more of them.

And here the Chinese Learner Legals REALLY are working agaianst us. How MANY times have we had on this forum, had to explain to 16/17 year olds or thier parents, that a brand new Chinese scooter or motorbike is NOT going to work, out the box, like a new washing machine, and that they need maintenence?

Maintenence these people just do NOT have the first idea about? They buy a washing machine, they buy a 'good' one they expect ten years trouble free, plug it in, switch it on, press the button, service from it. They buy a cheap one, they expect three years trouble free use; and when they buy a Chinese one, they are dissapointed it only works for a year, but hey, it WAs cheap.

They buy a brand new Chinese Bike, they dont even get that. And becouse they DONT do 'mechanics' having grown up in a world of cheap cars which run with nominal servicing or repairs for ten years dont even know where to START doing basic routine DIY maintenence like checking the chain adjustment!

Many of these people dont even know how to look after a bicycle; kids or parents; they buy one at Halfords or Toys are us, and within a year it's got a buckled wheel and bald tyres, and when they find out its £25 to fix it, mutter 'forget it! only cost fifty quid. He'll have to wait, I'll get'im a new one for Birthday/Christmas'

Until the Chinese get the product quality up to the level of market expectation, and the things WILL work like a washing machine, maintenence and trouble free for a year to three years, minimum; they aren't an answer to anything, and stand little or no chance of any-one bveing able to build brands on the back of them.

And the American & EU trade agreements providing trading quota's are not helping anything, either.

The artificial exchange rate is not YET really an issue, while China still significantly has a communist 'Planned Ecconomy', and thier labour has effectively zero ecconomic worth.

Meanwhile, with quota's on the $ value of thier exports, they want as high a 'profit' margin as is possible on the gross allowable trading value.

I cant remember what the curve is called, but its a hill shape, profit increasing to a peak with sales volume, then falling off again. And you get two sales volumes that give the same level of profit either side of the peak. One from low volume sales with high price, one with low volume sales at a low price. You choose which is more suitable for your business plan; low sales high value; is good for short term products in a non saturated market; suiting novelty or specialised goods. High sales low value; is better in a saturated, price sensitive market. And when they have little or no products of 'novelty' value, more advanced than western goods, but a huge available work force to make large volumes, THAT is the best strategy for them to take.

How the chinese industry might eveolve, apart from making ever more low quality goods for a saturated market remains to be seen.

But at some point; with western ecconomies colapsing, and manufacturing industry abandoning the west, there is bound to come a point, where even at the rediculousely low prices that Chinese goods are offered at, it's still TOO high to sustain the volume sales, and markets WILL shrink.

Meanwhile; the polarisation of the generally 'small-bike' commuter market, and the generally 'big-bike' leisure market is likely to get a lot bigger.

The 3rd Directive Licence laws threaten to effectively ban, younger riders from anything bigger than 125 Learner-Legals. If we retain the L-Plate laws, then the already redundant A1 125 only licence will remain so. If not, then that will become the new 'CBT', and with pottentially a two year qualifying period to obtain an A2, and the punative requirement to test DAS style for it, at 19 years old, with another two years qualifying period to test DAS style again for a full A-Group, to obtain full licence at 21 years old at the earliest, will see the A2 group fall pretty much redundant, too. And we will have a licence system that promotes 125's for teenagers, and an imediete leap, possibly from ne previouse biking experience at all, to 'Big-Bikes' via DAS over 24.

We have enjoyed a resurgence in recent years of younger riders 'progressing' from 125's, to middleweights, and using them, as in days of yore as 'every day' means of transport.

But the polarising trends in the market, plus the new licencing system will significantly increase the divide and inhibit that pretty 'solid' and justifiable middle ground in the persuit.

The 125 market, is likely to evolve even more in the direction it has been going for the last fifteen years, with a lot of over-priced 'toy' motorcycles, that look like bigger sports-bikes, cruisers or adventure sports; sold to teenagers, and mildly interested car drivers; and lots and lots of washing machine like scooters, significantly sold to ever less enthusiastic 'commuters' wanting no more than a bus-fare beating way to work.

The 'big-bike' market, is likely to evolve even more stridently towards more liesure, life-style orientated machines, designed for affluent Sunday Riders.

So....

The Chinese bikes, significantly, at the moment firmly in the commuter market; where they as often put off or dissolusion new riders who MAY otherwise have thier interests stimulated and progress to full licence and bigger bikes.

3rd Directive Laws, and a gulf opening in the middle-market between commuters and leisure-bikes, that no-one is attempting to span, and chinese bikes certainly dont offer a bridge between.

No... as I see it, Chinese bikes are what they are; as often a pain in the arse, NOT doing the job expected of them, and dissolusioning far to many; who then look at the prices of the (Usually Japanese) bikes that do, and simply say "No" I'll get a car... and get mummy to insure it, or I'll get the insurance on tick..... OR would rather take the bus.

If they did the job, and were more fit for purpose, then yes, they might help get more people in to bikes, and might help keep more of them interested. BUT without anything to stimulate and encourage of people progressing to A2 licences, and virtually nothing in the market to ride on an A2, there is nothing to span that evolving gap, and stimulate a 'progression' from the learner market to the big-bike market, and they will become ever more independent entities.

Its been going that way for forty years, I dont see that changing much. And I dont see Chinese bikes playing a significant part in any of it.

Only possible ray of hope, is perhaps those 'lads' that turn up in my back-garden, who used to show me 'Universal' push bikes from Toys R Us, with flat tyres and buckled wheels, optimistically hoping I could fix them, or show them how to fix them, now turning up with Chinese bikes, and asking me why the front wheel rim is wobbling around and the bikes making knocking noises when they go round corners, and HAVING to get familiar with spanners to fix them! POSSIBLY bringing about a small renaisance in 'make do and mend' attitudes rather than 'Chuck it away and buy another' consumerism... though so far, not looking promicing.... of two, bougt with great enthusiasm, that were wrecks within a month.... one has given up the battle and chucked it in the shed in disgust, the other has stuck it together with sticky tape and cardboard, and flogged it on e-bay to buy a Kawasaki 'Crossa' (KH80) he's been riding about the streets with no licence, tax, insurance or helmet! ... "becouse its 'too 'spensive' to do it legal, loike, innit! Had to spend mi licence money gettin' a boik tha' wirks, didnoiy?"

This is the 'small ray of light'? Chinese bikes getting aspirations up, then letting hopes down. Stimulating an interests that cant be sustained, and THEN a punative legaslative frame-work that actually pushes people into the margins, and criminalises them for the slightest short-coming, RATHER than encouraging them to do it 'properly' and giving incentive to 'progress'!

If we WANT people entering biking, and hanging around, then there has to be a legeslative frame work in place that encourages that.

We need to make the licence system more accessible; and less punative. The stepped licence system COULD do that; BUT:

L-Plating needs to 'go'. The A1 licence needs to be awarded IN FULL, for a much more slimmed down and low cost 'test', slightly harfder than CBT, but not as onerouse or expensive as the two MOD's.

Sure, it wont make great riders; but better than having people riding on L's the whole while, or riding illegally.

The A2 group needs to be 'Encouraged'. The testing on a bike with max performance allowable by the group needs to be dumped.

A1, you ought to get on ANY bike up to 125cc, as now. BUT before you can legally ride unsupervised.

You ought to THEN be allowed to test for A2 ON a 125, that you can ride on A1, rather than having to test DAS style.

Then you ought to be able to test for full 'A' on an A2 bike.

As for the qualifying periods; I think that twelve months would be sufficient before being eligible to step up to A2, and two years on A2 'reasonable' before stepping up to full A.

BUT, like the L-Plate rules that significantly promote the 125 perpetual L-Plating commuter market, the DAS rules that promote the imediete 'leap' to big bikes, promoting that sector, needs to be dispensed with.

If you like bikes; if you want to get into bikes, there's the route. A1, before you can get on the road. A2, eligible after a year, you can test for it on your 125. Two years later, you can test on your A2 bike for full 'A', THEN you can jump on any bike you like. NOT before.

THAT would actually demand newbies start at the bottom of the ladder, and encourage commuters into the middle ground, and stimulate that middle market, encouraging the manufacturers of whatever nationality to make bikes for it.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[lukamon]

THREE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED WORDS Mike, jesus christ
____________________
killa wrote: Im an ass man myself

[kawashima]

[salty21]

is that mikes longest post yet?

P.s, you owe me a new mouse wheel.
____________________
04 NSR 125(sold) ---- 03 CBR 600rr(sold) ----90 pan euro ST1100 '' ----02 CG 125
94 CB400 Super Four ---- 2000 VTR SP1 (sold) ---- 08 ninja p8f(sold, meh) ----05 CBR600rr

[Cheeseybeaner]

[Cheeseybeaner]

[Bezzer]

[Rogerborg]

[bassmastergen...]

[Cheeseybeaner]

[Cheeseybeaner]