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Vinjy
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| Quornholio |
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Quornholio
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Dean-J
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JoeDougieDoug...
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| J.M. |
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J.M.
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 Posted: 23:04 - 26 Dec 2011  Post subject: |
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| JoeDougieDouglas wrote: | I didn't know there was a power limit for riding a 125 on a CBT... if its 14.6bhp, then that means you wouldn't be able to ride a Cagiva Mito, or Aprillia RS125, or Honda NSR 125... I see loads of these on the roads every day...  |
| https://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_4022568 wrote: |
A learner motorcycle has an engine up to 125 cc and a power output not exceeding 11 kiloWatt (kW) |
As for the biking aspect. Driving a car, as most people will tell you, is completely different from riding a bike - so please don't get under the misconception that you'll find biking easy because of it.
I do recommend getting your license as quickly as possible - before the 2013 changes. You do not need to spend a lot of money on getting your license: it costs £121.50 if you pass it all first time. £15.50 Mod1, £75 Mod2, £31 Theory. People say that the DAS is hundreds of pounds, the test is not hundreds of pounds, the training course is. The tests are the same price.
Most learner legal 125cc bikes should be able to get a real 50-60mph.
| Vinjy wrote: | I was looking at scrap yards and eBay for auctions on damaged and old bikes because I am quite mechanic-minded and would love an opportunity to restore/ fix up a bike. Where should I look, any tips? |
From what I've read a lot on this forum, doing a project bike will more than likely take you longer/more money than you were expecting, so be wary of that.
| Vinjy wrote: | I want to get a 125cc bike that I could also take off road (say at the weekends) but so it is still road legal, does that seem feasible? |
I think there's a thread about something like this in general bike chat or something. If I read it correctly then it can be done, but tyres may be an issue - someone else will have to give you more information about that though, I'm just saying what I've read, no idea what I'm talking about 
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| Quornholio |
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| Pete. |
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Pete.
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Posted: 01:40 - 27 Dec 2011  Post subject: |
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Welcome Vinjy!
In your situation - I would take a CBT then save my money and do my direct access test, befoe even thinking about a bike.
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| Gothtec |
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Gothtec
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| Posted: 07:30 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Take your CBT, get a cheap ratter (doesn't matter when you fall off then), most 125cc bikes are in the right power range (just)... You'll get top speed of 55mph to 60mph with the wind behind you (downhill) although I got a 125cc to 70mph couple of months back (straight flat road no wind)....
Don't do direct access.... Its doesn't make you a great biker or a safe one... Just gets you killed quicker!
Learn to walk (ride) before learning to run (riding like a twonk) it will keep you alive longer!!!
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| Dean-J |
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Dean-J
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| FerretFing |
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FerretFing
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| Posted: 09:28 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Welcome to the forum potential new biker!   |
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| Englishman |
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Englishman
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| Posted: 11:13 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| Dean-J wrote: | He can still ride a 125 to gain experience once having passed DAS. There is no requirement to say you must ride a bigger bike just because you have a full licence!
And yes the tests only cost £121.50, but in reality having never ridden a bike on the road, he is going to need some training, so £5-600 is a lot more realistic.
Jumping straight on a big bike ( if thats what he should choose to do ) is NOT going to get someone killed quicker than riding a 125 first. Lets face it, your bike is as fast as you make it, corners as quickly/slowly as you make it, Stops when you tell it to etc. So the key factor. whatever bike you ride, is you. |
I agree completely. It'll be cheaper to do DAS before the changes, and then your options for what bike to suit what you want to do with it will be huge.
Used 125 prices are inflated due to the high demand from CBT passees (?) so I did DAS and got a big bike a month ago. I enjoyed the 125 for the single day I was on one for the CBT, but now I really appreciate a 650 Versys and would not have been happy on L plates for long.
If you can sort out borrowing a bike, you can have a crack at the Mods 1 and 2 without forking out for training, but unless you're a complete natural at riding, you probably won't pass them so I'd spend £500 on doing it the DAS route and open up your options after getting the A license. |
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| Beelzebob |
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Beelzebob
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| Posted: 13:30 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| Gothtec wrote: | Don't do direct access.... Its doesn't make you a great biker or a safe one... Just gets you killed quicker! |
Where to start with this? It's a negative statement and quite misleading (though I agree with the 'walk before you can run' element).
Being a twat gets you killed quicker. Ultimately a bike only goes as fast as you make it. I did Direct Access just over a year ago. I have so far completely failed to kill myself.
Direct Access just means that you do the test on a bigger bike. Nothing more, nothing less. As has been said, you can ride a 125 on a full licence.
The nature of Direct Access is such that, typically at least, to gain access to the bigger bike to take the test on, you actually have to do some training with a bike school. Therefore you're at least getting some tuition in what (not) to do, rather than potentially going through the 125 test route on your own, and jumping on a bigger (albeit restricted) bike immediately with no tuition. You could argue that this is more dangerous than learning/getting tuition on a bigger bike.
Ultimately you've got to do what suits you. Some people do it on a 125 with no tuition, some people (like me) get a 125 then go Direct Access, and some just skip the 125, and take Direct Access training/test with a school.
Depends on money/circumstances.
In terms of machinery, you might want to just buy a bike that's already got tax/MoT, rather than a 'project money pit' first bike that might put you off. 125s are learner bikes so attract a hefty premium, and you can get mid-sized commuter bikes for around the same price that will spank the 125s for performance. So you might want to think aboot Direct Access.
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:45 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: Re: Potential Biker looking for a few tips and advice |
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| Vinjy wrote: | I have been driving since I was 18, I am now 21 (22 in a couple months) and am considering getting a bike. I was reading up on the guides in the stickies about the different ways to a full license and obviously the age is no longer a concern for me |
Well, picking up from Old Head on Young Shoulder's Jordan's comments:
1/ Age unfortunately IS a concern for you. At THIS moment in time, you are 'just' old enough to get a full unrestricted A-Group licence under DAS rules. In a year's time, that age break goes up to 24.
2/ You dont want to spend too much money. You dont say what your idea of a lot of money is; BUT. 125's are a lot of money for what they are. a 'Decent' 125 is likely to cost about £1500. You also need a helmet, gloves, boots and basic riding kit. You ouight to budget around £250 for this 'Kit'. You then need your CBT to validate provisional entitlement; Around £100, then if you have any sense, some road training, and the tests to gain full licence. Road training to test standard will be in the order of £200, and the tests, £121.50 over CBT, and Insurance on a 125, for a 21 year old, something in the region of £400.
ALL IN: you can anticipate something like £2500 to get yourself 'On The Road' on a ready to ride 125, booted & suited, and with the means to get a full licence on it.
It ENT necessarily 'Cheap'.
3/ Dirt Bikes
Great Idea... BUT: first up they are expensive to insure. Knobly tyres make them a magpie magnet. They have very high theft risk. Insurance on my DT125 is roughly 50% more than on my 750. This is an endemic to the beast, and you'll find applies to big dirt bikes as well as little ones; BUT starting out, with the 'loading' on 125's to begin with, may be a lot to bear.
Also Duel-Purpose bikes; they are inherently compromised. They are neither dedicated 'cross-country' machines, nor dedicated tarmac bikes; so they are never going to be great on road or off it.
And before we go any further; lets have a look at your idea about what 'Off-Road' may be. Three main 'off-road' disciplines:
Moto-Cross: Short Circuit, 'racing' over rough usually ramp strewn track. Bikes have super long travel suspension, incredibly aggressive 'knobly' tyres, small capacity petrol tanks and highly tuned engines; intended to run for fifteen twenty minutes pretty much flat out the whole time.
Observed Section Trials (or just 'Trials' & MY sport) Gravity defying 'trick-Riding' over seemingly impossible obsticles; logs, rocks, cars, round trees, up cliffs etc. Events are arranged in 'sections' where an Observer watches you and scores your faults. Machines are incredibly light, and very very slow, geared for maybe 25mph flat out, and have no seat.
Enduro A Cross Country 'Race', over a usually longer course than Moto-Cross, often with more 'challenging' technical sections more like a trials course, though often not 'observed'.
You can do any of these sports, 'off-road' and you dont need a road bike or road licence to compete.
So we come down to the 'Non-Competative' off-road activity.
Pay & Play or 'Practice Track Usually Moto-Cross tracks, opened to the paying plublic on non race days, you can take a dirt bike to and ride around, for maybe a tenner, with more or less organisation of 'sessions'. Or old quarreys, that allow 'free riding' for bikes, quads, 4x4's, again, for a fee and with more or less organisatiuon & regulation. Better venues at least dont allow bikes and 4x4's on the site at the same time. But some do.
Private Land / Field Biking Has to be 'Private Land, you have the owners permission to ride on, AND it must not be publically accessible. If the public can gain access, even illegal access, then Road Traffic Act applies, and in either instance, you have to be careful of public neuisance offences.
So, using a bike 'off-road' can be a bit limited. You have organised sport. And idea of using a 'Duel Purpose' machine in Moto-Cross or Trials is a non starter really. Might be more practicable for Enduro, though. Or you are looking at Pay & play sites, or private land.
Which brings us to....
Green-Laning / Trail Riding This is NOT 'off-roading'.
This is riding unsurfaced PUBLIC roads. Road traffic act applies. Bike needs to be 100% road legal, same as riding round town. BUT, you cant just take to the hills, and ride down any old track takes your fancy; has to be a track with vehicular right os way. You cant ride down foot-paths, bridleways or private roads, like forrestry commission access trails.
You CANNOT legally take a bike over any old bit of waste land, or round any old unsurfaced track trail or path you come accross.
Legal 'off-roading' IS significantly limited. Great idea, BUT we dont actually have very much of it in this little, densely populated little island of ours.
Duel Purpose Bike, use it to get around, and have a bit of fun 'off-road'.... great idea in thoery, but in PRACTICE... how much opportunity do you REALLY have to use the thing 'off-road' or on unsurfaced routes?
If it's just for a bit of fun; chances are, you will do little 'off-road', certainly legal off road, unless youg o to a P&P, and maybe a 'bit' off green-laning, which you are likely to find not THAT exiting, unless you start hacking up the trails ignoring the blanket 25mph speed limit and treating it as an enduro track.
4/ Project Bikes
Every-one has the idea aboyt fixing up an old wreck 'on the cheap'. It can be done, but seldom is.
Then you have the small matter that more nieve optimistic newbies have the idea of starting with a 125 they can ride on L-Plates. There are more people want 125's than are selling them, and even for a wrecked road bike, you are likely to have to pay sort of money that would get you a road-worthy taxed & tested 'big bike'.
Old dirt bikes, are even more desirable; as so many have the idea they can do them up and use them 'off-road'. Its not a cheap idea.
Your Donor bike is going to be expensive, ort so far wrecked it will prove expensive.
I have been renovating my old DT125, for the last six months. Bike I managed to snag for a bargain £250, as a runner. Bill to get it reasonably tidy and functional is currently running at over £800, and I have yet to tackle the electrics. By the time I get it ready for an MOT, I expect it will have cost me a grand, and 'on the road' not far short of £1500. And that's on a bike with 'simple' air-cooled engine I haven't had to rebuild; cable operated drum brakes, and 'simple' cantilever suspension. Not a more modern machine with water cooling, hydraulic disc brakes, and complex multi-link suspension system with loads of niggly bushes that will almost certainly want replacing.
Fixing up bikes is a great 'hobby'; BUT, I can tell you from hard experience doing it for nearly thirty years; time effort and expense involved, you are incredibly unlikely to build a bike from a wreck for less than you could buy a ready to ride example.
Might get a 'better' bike for your money, if you do it right, though, but chances of flogging the thing once done for more than its cost you is slim. You HAVE to price it like you would any other hobby, how much you enjoy it, and hope to get the value from the cost of parts you buy, using the bike when done.
Rough guide; double the amounbt of space, you expect the job to need; treble the budget you expect to spend, and quadrouple the amount of time you expect it to take, and you MAY be close to the truth!
5/ My advice. Think long and hard. 125's have two uses. They are good 'Learning Tools' to get a full licence, or they are cheap, utiliterian bus-fare beating transport.
They are very limited capability & versatility bikes to begin with; dont expect too much from them to begin with,m or you will be dissapointed.
FIRST thing to consider is if you want a 'road bike'. Sod off road capability at this stage.
Do you WANT to ride on the road?
If so, then you need a licence, and you have 12 months to get a licence under current rules on a 125, or via DAS. or you're stuck until you are 24, when you will ONLY have the DAS route open to you.
For that, stuff project bikes. You dont have the time to be fucking around wasting time bolting stuff together before you even begin.
Fuck dirt bikes. You want something that will get you through tests, as easily as possible.
Regulation Learner/commuter is THE tool for the job. Yamha YBR125, Suzuki GS125, Honda CG125 or the like.
Uninspiring little things, and still not 'cheap', but they do the job, loose little functionality sacrificed for style or performance, they just 'work', and in the mean time cost little to own or ruin, and sell readily for good money when you are done with them.
THAT is what you need to get you a licence.
THEN you can start thinking about what road bike you might want, and whether a dirt bike might do the job.
Dirt bikes on road, are compromised machines. Tyres, suspension, geometry, riding possition, and NOT great for road riding. More off-road orientated they are, more compromises come with them. More road biased they are, less capable they are on dirt.
SO, do you want to think about a 'Dedicated' off-roader? As said, you dont need a road licence to enter organised sport? Trials is the cheapest form of motorsport to engage in. £30 a year for club and ACU membership, then £5 or £10 an event there after. Its very very cheap. Moto-Cross is more expensive. A lot more expensive; I dont know what the rates are like these days; but I would be surprised if the entries were less than £30 a time, for perhaps one or two fifteen minute practice sessions, and three fifteen minute races. Enduro, is probably not much cheaper, but does give you four hours or more saddle time a session, like trials.
You can get a light weight off-road comper to events by car, on a tow-ball mounted bike rack; you dont need a trailer, and I have used a bike rack for the last £20 years quite hapily, and you can buy one for about £50.
So the set up costs and overheads of competition can be quite small, and actually be CHEAPER than road bikes.
There's also classic competition, and if you want a project bike, a very healthy 'scene' where fixing up the bikes is as much a part of the sport as riding the feckers.
This opens completely new doors WHERE your ideas of getting an old bike and fixing it up, might be made easier, if no cheaper; and gives a venue to do some 'real' off roading with it, completely avoiding the high 'overhead' of getting a road bike, road legal, and sorting a licence out.
BUT; sorry to say, your initial idea, worthy as it is, is rather optimistic, and you are trying to compound TOO many hopes and aspirations into ONE project...
- Renovation Project
- 125 Road-Bike
- Fun off-roader
- CHEAP
Split it up.
For the road, do the cheap ready to ride commuter & get a licence with it.
For the Road Bike - think hard whether you really want one. If so, whether you want to build one. If so, doing a 'big bike' for when you have a licence is a much more likely prospect.
For Off Road... well, organised competition will give you most opportunity for 'real' off-roading. Pick up a copy of Trials & MX News, check out the ACU website for local clubs and the class regs. See what takes your fancy. Buy or build a bike to have a crack.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| crackfinder |
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crackfinder
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| Posted: 16:00 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| banditjohn |
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banditjohn
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| Posted: 16:03 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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WOW  Really good info and I would totally agree, think hard as to what route you feel like taking |
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| crackfinder |
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crackfinder
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| Posted: 16:33 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Last edited by crackfinder on 16:37 - 27 Dec 2011; edited 1 time in total |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 16:33 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: Re: Potential Biker looking for a few tips and advice |
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Post Script:-
| Vinjy wrote: | Nice forum guys, lots of information here. I was just hoping someone could just give me a few tips and... just to confirm that what I have planned is completely ridiculous. |
See above, not completely rediculouse; just hugely nievely optiomistic. But whatever masocism you preffer, really; it's no more rediculouse or expensive than paying Madamme Fi-F- to tie you to a bed, and poor hot wax on your nipples, I guess!
| Vinjy wrote: | So I was thinking I'd get a 125cc bike (after a CBT). What is the restriction on that? |
125 cc max, 14.5bhp max. L-Plates, no pillions, or motorways
| Vinjy wrote: | What about riding on dual carriageways, what kind of speeds can I get out of a 125? |
Realistically, 65mph, raggingthe arse off it.
Dirt bikes withthe human parachute riding possition are NOT nice on blustery by-passes. Best aboided on most light weights TBH, or if you do, top speed is accademic. Get in the truck stack, and cruise at 56mph, in the 'slip stream' saving the power you might have to go faster for hills!
You will be told lots of stories, but the 14.5bhp of the learner limit is JUST enough to nudge a genuine 70mph on GPS.... what you'll see on a speedo is a different matter and every teenager claims to get 80-90 out of their 125.
I got a GPS checked 70 out of the CB125 Super-Dream I built last year, two up.... speedo was off the end of the scale, showing something around 85!
If it had been a full faired sports 125, might get a couple of extra mph out of the top end in favourable conditions. If it had been a dirt bike?
Well, my DT125 has 175 barel on it, makes more than the learner legal limit allows; around 17/18bhp about what you get from a de-restricted DT125LC with water cooling. It's good for 'about' 65 maybe 70 at a nudge, due to the poor aerodynamics, and high rolling resistance of knobly tyres. But its bludy scary at them speeds on a bike with bog all weight, nervouse geometry and parachute riding possition, every tug of wind tugging you around making the bike steer, when the knoblies only have a 'tentative' grip on tarmac to begin with!
| Vinjy wrote: | I was looking at scrap yards and eBay for auctions on damaged and old bikes because I am quite mechanic-minded and would love an opportunity to restore/ fix up a bike. Where should I look, any tips?. |
As above; think whether you really want a project?
If you DO, dont do a 125.
If you like the idea of off road, pick a classic comper; trials or Enduro, do that.
If you want a road bike; pick a big-one to ride post test.
Dont be afraid of paying big money for a project bike; better 'base' you have to begin with, better chance of seeing it to completion, and it costing less money.
You want something as 'complete' as you can get. But a stripped down Duel Purpose bike (like I did with my DT) or a bike with big bits missing, becouse its 'cheap' you can be held to ransom, looking for second hand parts, or new old stock, or paying dealer prices, IF the bit is even available.
Give you an ideal; I have spent the last TWO YEARS hunting down a cam-shaft for an old Honda.....
And pick your bike, CAREFULLY.
For Trials; the Yamaha TY's are an old favourite; they are about the best supported for spares; BUT they are expensive to buy a donor.
There are apparent 'bargains' out there, like a TY250 'Pinky' or mono-shock, but then you find that they aren't as well supported for spares, and ACTUALLY they cant be entered into the classic classes.....
Then theres a bunch of bikes you probably have never heard of, like Montesa, Bultaco, OSSA, Fantic or SWM. If you know what you are dealing with, some are restorable; others a road to ruin.
Lots of cheap Fantics out there; but like Yam pinkies, ones with mono suspension aren't eligible for classic classes; ones that are T-Shock maybe, but they are a frought resto prospect due to DIRE parts availability.
For Road bikes; many more choices abound; but picking your bike still important, and again, dont be afraid to spend money on a more worthy base. Cheap is cheap for a reason.
Takes about the same effort to renovate a bike, no matter what it is; and costs little more to renovate a big bike than a little one, and not hugely more a complex one.
So, restoring a Honda CD200 Benley, a lowly 17bhp commuter, that you could buy dirt cheap as a project base, wont take much less money or time, to renovate than say a Triumph Bonaville 650, which while it might cost a lot more to buy, and a bit more to build; will be worth a LOT more of the money and effort you put into it when 'done'.
| Vinjy wrote: | I want to get a 125cc bike that I could also take off road (say at the weekends) but so it is still road legal, does that seem feasible? |
See above. Its 'feasible'; but depends on your idea of 'off-road' and how important that bit of dirt riding may be; AND whether the compromises are worth it.
Personally if you 'like' off-roading, then organised sport is the way to go; If you like road bikes; then a dedicated road bike, without the compromises is the way to go.
I have owned my Montesa over a quarter of a century; it WAS road registered when I bought it. I have NEVER used it as a road bike....
Geared for 45mph flat out, I could go faster on a moped, and have a more comfy 'seat' and not be wearing out expensive 'trials slicks' at a rediculouse rate.
DT I have now is a different story, and yes; intent is to use it as a 'town bike' bimbling around 20, 30, 40mph roads with maybe the odd short blast up the duel carriageway, 4miles or so to get to Coventry. Compromises are 'acceptable'. Like fact it only has a 1.5 gallon petrol tank, and a 'range' of about sixty miles from brim full to reserve!
And to do the 'odd' bit of 'gentle' green-laning; where I do know all the local 'legal' trails, and am not going to be honing it about like I was on an Enduro, or trying to find stuff that would challenge me like a trials section... I'm too old for such high adrenaline antics these days! So suits me, and I know what to expect.
But, given the low-down on the 'reality' of how much REAL off-roading there is in this country, and the specialisation of bikes for the persuit... well, a little green-laning can be an intro, and can be fun, BUT, if that's where your interest is, you would be better off, I think looking at trials or enduro. It would be cheaper to tog up to have a go, and if you dont like, probably easier & cheaper to cash in if you dont like it.
Meanwhile, with the limits imposed by a 125 machine, likely to be asking too much of it, and while they don't make SUCH a bad Training & Test tool, they are not as helpful as a regulation Learner commuter.
They aren't as 'stable' on thier tall soft suspension and knobly tyres, and while the riding position isn't so bad for manouverability through test cones and 'stuff' some excersizes like the e-stop and U-turn can be harder... so if you are starting out, its giving you more to cope with.
While; in my mind, with barely twelve months to get a full licence on a 125, a free for all to get test dates, I'm not so sure I would want to risk having to cancell or miss a test date if I got one, becouse I had buggered the bike pratting around on the dirt the week before... which IS a big risk.
Dirt bikes are pretty tough, designed to be dropped; but they still bend dropped hard enough, and levers and handlebars, indicators and bits of bodywork are vulnerable!
As said; personally I would seperate out the different elements of what you want to do here.
To get a licence; get a 125 commuter, or do a DAS course (I'd reccomend 125 commuter personally)
To go Dirt-Biking: read T&MX News; get a comper, and a bike-rack; go do it ion organised sport.
To do a 'project' think what suits your ideas of what bike you would like to own/ride; Research them; look at what's most 'do-able' and 'worth it'; as in a bike you stand least chance of loosing money on to flog, or will get most joy from owning/riding, and do THAT a completely seperate project; either as a post test 'big-bike' for the road, or possibly as a classic comper for organised sport.
DONT try and csqueeze TOO many aspirations into ONE project; you are only going to make it more difficult, more expensive and less likely to happen.
And the IMPERATIVE right now is that licence. We have just a year to get licences under current rules, where you can test on a 125 and get a full A-Group licence (all be it with 24month 33bhp probationary restriction) or under 24 via DAS.
In a years time; you will have to be 24 to do a DAS course to get a full A group licence to ride a big bike. You wont be able to test for anything but a 125 'only' A1 group on a 125, and the 'restricted' licence will become the for-ever restricted A2 group, you will have to get by testing DAS style, if under 24, and repeat to 'upgrade' to a full A.
It's NOT a lot of time, and taking on a 'project' ahead of that, will eat most of it, if not all or more.
I do project bikes, for fun, and regularly; my O/H did a 125 Super-Dream, to get her a bike to do tests on; not starting from scratch, knowing what I was about, having the money to chuck at it; over-seeing her do that project, it was three days short of a year, from actually buying the donor bike, to getting it through an MOT, and it was ten days later I took her over to do her CBT on it.
On THAT score, getting a 125 'project' bike to fix up and test on, while you can still get the value testing on a 125 for a full A-group licence.... I dont REALLY think you stand much of a chance.
But, depends on what you want; and whether a licence IS that important. For dirt-comp, you dont need one.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 20:57 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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| Vinjy wrote: | Thanks for all your input guys and Mike, big thanks for putting in all that time to break it up and type all that out, I really appreciate it. |
Your Welcome.
| JoeDougieDouglas wrote: | I didn't know there was a power limit for riding a 125 on a CBT... if its 14.6bhp, then that means you wouldn't be able to ride a Cagiva Mito, or Aprillia RS125, or Honda NSR 125... I see loads of these on the roads every day... |
You can ride ANY 125 on provisional entitlement PROVIDED it meets the learner restrictions; ie is restricted to 14.5bhp.
Bikes like the Yamaha DT125, TZR125, Honda NSR, Kawasaki KMX, Aprillia RS, or Cagiva Mito, amongst others; MAY make anything up to around 28bhp, in 'full-power' 'standard'.
As supplied in the UK in the dealers though, most will have been de-tuned or artificially 'restricted' to the UK Learner Limit, at the factory; or via a Dealer 'Restriction Kit'.
You might tune or De-Restrict a 125,and you might ride it on L-Plates, and it doesn't have to be a two stroke. My little fleet of early 80's Honda CB125'four strokes all make more than modern learner legal limit in 'Full-Power' non-uk standard; BUT doing so is in contravention of your licence entitlement; and as illegal as jumping onto something like a 600, and riding that without a licence, or insurance.
| Vinjy wrote: | I had no idea about the 2013 regulation change! So if I get my DAS test passed this year I am safe right? |
If you test DAS you get straight away full unrestricted licence; and that wont be revoked or anything when new licence laws come into force. They are NOT restrospectively applied.
If you test 125 'standard Bike' and get 'restricted' A group, that WILL still automatically 'mature' to become a full unrestricted A-group after two years. Again its NOT restrospective; They wont suddenly change that to an A2 for-ever restricted licence...
Though if DVLA fuck up a change of details when they issue a new licence.... they might put the wrong entitlement down! hint; they do; so make sure you copy your licence before you send it off, and if you can keep pass certs and or photocopies of them! And ALWAYS check your licence details before and after you send it to DVLA.
So, from where you are now. IF you take and pass your tests this year, ahead of 3rd directive laws, yes, you are 'safe'.
Well, at least as far as your licence entitlement. Who KNOWS how much of a danger you may be to yourself or any-one else on the road!
| Vinjy wrote: | So you're saying that buying a 125cc commuter is the best and cheapest way to getting a full unrestricted license before the 2013 changes? |
| Pete. wrote: | Pros & Cons of DAS vs 125 |
| Dean-J wrote: | Pros & Cons of DAS vs 125 |
| Englishman wrote: | Pros & Cons of DAS vs 125 |
| Beelzebob wrote: | Pros & Cons of DAS vs 125 |
Tough Cookie; but expolaining the system as it stands:
There are TWO licence groups currently available.
A1 - 125 Only licence. STILL actually with the 14.5bhp power limit as learner legals.
A - The FULL any size, any power motorcycle licence.
A (restricted) - OK, there's 'sort' of three groups! Restricted A is the same A group; its a full licence; BUT if you test on a 125, you have a two year, probationary restriction to machines with no more than 33bhp. When that lapses, though, its a full A group, ride what you like. You dont have to take any other tests or anything.... just wait two years.
There are Three parts to the motorcycle test; plus the pre-qualifier of CBT. So to get a full licence you need:
1/ CBT
2/ Theory/Hazard test (for motorcycle!)
3/ Module 1 Practical 'off-road excersises'
4/ Module 2 Practical 'on road riding'
Parts and thier prices are exactly the same, whether you are testing on a sub 120cc or unlisted 125 bike for the A1 125 only licence; on a 120-125cc listed 'Standard Bike', or on a 'full power' DAS machine. Only difference is the bike you take the tests on.
There is absolutely NO compulsion to do ANY training for your tests, apart from CBT.
You can test for A1 on any bike, under 120cc. But to test for 'Standard-Bike' to gain Restricted A-Group, bike has to be on the DSA approved list, and between 120 & 125cc, with cert of restriction, if it is one of the bikes that may be supplied with more than Learner-Legal power.
If you want to test for DAS, you have to be over 21, and you have to have completed CBT, and done Theory/Hazard for a motorcycle; BUT you have to do both Mod 1 & Mod 2 practical tests on DAS eligible 'Full-Power' motorcycle, I think over 400cc or there abouts.
Kicker to DAS is that you CANNOT ride a DAS eligibe bike, before tests; EXCEPT under the radio supervision of a qualified and approved DAS instructor.
So you do NOT have to do a DAS course to test under DAS rules; BUT without training, it's going to be hard work, and logistically difficult, getting a taxed & tested & insured 'Big-Bike' to the test centre and L-Plated up for you to ride on test.
Can be done; for example; I have a CB750, my O/H snowie could ride under the 'any vehicle with owners permission' extension of the insurance on her bike (or a car, if she had one), and I could ride the bike to the test centre with her on the pillion; slap L's on, hand her the keys and tell her to get on with it... But difficult for her to have legally had any practice riding that bike before hand, and certainly none on the public road.
Now; DAS courses. Tend to be rather expensive. Typically around £1000. What you get for that money is pretty variable; BUT.
First of all, an awful big chunk of that money is for the hire of a bike, and paying an instructor to fullfill the legal requirement to supervise you, while you practice.
You will get, typically three or four days of training, and you MAY or May NOT get tests included in the price.
Schools often get 'block bookings' with the test centres, but costed outside of course price, they CAN charge a premium for them.
School my Step-Lad was looking at the other day, wanted £50 for a Mod 1 test booking.... DSA charge just £15.50 if you self book. School I instructed at, charge a fairly 'reasonable' £25 for a Mod 1 block booking, and £100 for a (£75) Mod 2; for which you'll often get an earlier test date.
Also depending on the school & how they work, you may pay for a days training, but spend half of a day, at the Test centre, watching other candidates do thier Mod 1's.
But, lets presume a four day course;
Day 1: CBT - often done on a 125; possibly you may do it on a 500 or do some 500 'familiarisation' in the day.
Day 2: Mod 1 Practice. Lots of playground work. Maybe some road work, on a 500.
Day 3: Mod 1 test in the morning. Afternoon, road work in prep for Mod 2.
Day 4: Morning, road work, practice for Mod 2. Afternoon Mod 2.
So you get; one days CBT training; then maybe 8 hours Mod 1 Instruction. Maybe six hours saddle time. Another Six hours saddle time in prep for Mod 2, and two half days waiting around for the actual tests.
Its not a LOT of saddle time, nor a lot of training, nor a lot of practice.... but it CAN get you a licence in a hurry.
Fuck up Mod 1, though, and you are buggered. Three day cooling off period before you can book a repeat test; and you CANT do Mod 2 unless you have passed Mod 1. If you have been 'assigned' a session for Mod 2, you also loose your test fee if you cant sit it.
Failing DAS can get very expensive.
Personally I REALLY dont like Intensive DAS courses; they are a short cut to a full licence; and they tend to give woefully inadequete peparation for riding a big bike solo.
You start, knowiong nowt, and given enough 'test tips' being tought to do what the examiner wants to see, not necesserily all the stuff that will keep you safe, you get a licence. THEN are left, on your own to learn to ride, WITHOUT the confidence boosting earpiece of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, or giving encouragement; STRUGGLING to remember what you were tought, in such a 'rush' AND without a lot of 'know-how' on what is ACTUALLY good practice in teh 'real world' not on tests.
Doing it Solo on your own 125, can be just as bad. Learning from your own mistakes with no one giving any advice or guidance CAN be painful as well as expensive.
But, provided you dont make TOO many mistakes, and learn fast; can be 'cheap' only having teh DSA test fees to find.
Adding weekly lessons to guide self training on your own 125, is by far the 'best' way to learn IMO.
Your 12 hours saddle time with the instructor is ALL useful instruction. Not watching you 'practice'. You can practice to your hearts content, between lessons, and in lesson time, go through an excersise, get feed-back on it; then learn a new one, and so on.
Means you can cover more points of technique, and not have to concentrate so much merely on test tips, and generally get 'more' useful stuff about riding to survive.
Meanwhile; riding on your own between lessons; you dont get earpiece dependant; you also get as MUCH 'cheap' practice as you want, AND real solo riding experience.
You learn slowly, in small chunks, so more of it is likely to be remembered, AND having some better experience around it, more likely it will have meaning and relevence to help you inderstand it, but better still, that experience is likely to prompt you to discuss situations and scenario's you wouldn't even THINK of asking if ALL your riding was under supervision in a very rushed intensive course.
So, Learning on your own 125 CAN be a VERY good way to learn; learn more, and more ecconomically.
AND, just becouse you have trained on a 125, DOESN'T preclude you from Testing under DAS.
If you have done, maybe eight two hour lessons, with a school, on your own 125; you could minimise the DAS charges ONLY paying for perhaps two DAS training sessions, one to practice for Mod 1, one to practice for Mod 2, and hire the DAS bike, JUST for the tests.
IF you want to go DAS, for a full unrestricted licence straight away.
Only you can decide if that is worth it to you. Many feel that the 33bhp restriction is a significant impediment, and REALLY want that unrestricted licence. BUT, need not be, and if you want a dirt bike post test, plenty of 33bhp complient bikes or easily restricted bikes that would suite the job, where the power limit needn't been a major pain.
But either which way; options are there; you DONT have to do ANY formal training; you dont HAVE to do an Intensive DAS course.
He who pays the piper SHOULD call the tune; pic the route you think suits YOU best, and if a school doesn't offer a course or lessons YOU want, pick a different school.
(Far too many PUSH intensive DAS courses, becouse its easy money for them; most of it merely watching you fumble about on a big bike, practicing, not earning thier corn teaching you anything really useful, other than test-tips; and would LIKE you to believe that you HAVE to do DAS, and by an intensive course, and that some-how, doing it on a 125 is a waste of money.... if you get that kind of line; walk away, they ONLY want your money; they DONT want to 'teach' you)
| Vinjy wrote: | Is that enough time? |
And YES, 12 months is plenty of time, if you are a bit keen and fairly astute and able. Easy-Duz managed to get full licence training this way in just twelve weeks from buying a bike. It CAN be done, and a year is ample time, if you spend it wisely.
| Vinjy wrote: | Also, another question, out of curiosity if I go to another country, how valid would my UK license be? Do I just adhere to the local rules about ages and bike sizes? |
If you have a Full UK A-Group licence, you OUGHT to be 'clear' in treaty countries that recognise the UK Licence. Ie as long as the bike is in accordance with your UK entitlement, and you follow local road law vis speed limits, rights of way etc; ought not be a problem.
The UK restricted 33bhp licence, though isn't well understood, and could be a grey area with some forreight traffic cops; UK traffic cops aren't well renouned for thier detail knowledge of UK traffic law, so heaven help you facing a Johnny Forreigner one, dealing with a UK bike, and trying to talk to you in a forreign language! BUT, legally it ought to be 'respected' in treaty countries. BUT, if you have an unrestricted full power bike, and are breaking the law riding it in THIS country, dont expect any favours in a forreign one, if you get stopped!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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crackfinder
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| Posted: 21:32 - 27 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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Tef has covered many good points there
but just to give a bit of balance...
getting my licence in 2009 cost me £580,
that was for CBT, theory, mod 1 and mod 2, it includes 2 days training, 1 day training for each mod,
This price also included "bike hire" and the use of lids, gloves , boot, trousers and jackets.
I hadn't ridden anything at all for 18 years, and the only thing I had ridden in the past was a honda C70.
The time scale...
CBT on 24/3
Theory on 22/4
Day training for mod 1 on 12/5
Mod 1 on 13/5
Day training for Mod 2 on 14/5 and an hour on the morning of test on the 15th
Mod 2 on 15/5
I think the school I used were excellent, they gave very good, honest tuition at a competative price.
Tef is right about DAS unleashing a new rider on the roads with minimal experience, in fact the instructor told us he wasn't teaching us to ride as such, he was teaching us to pass the test and that "learning to ride" would come after, but he also said he was giving us the tools to survive and build our road craft once on the road post test.
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TheSmiler
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| Posted: 00:46 - 28 Dec 2011 Post subject: |
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My 2 cents to add to the answer is be careful if you pass your test whilst under 21 and then go onto a bike bigger than 125cc. With the license legislation not being clear, loose your license before you are 24 and you could be stuck with a bike that you are not legally allowed to ride.
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Old Thread Alert!
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