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Lie detectors being trialled in the UK

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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 31 Dec 2011    Post subject: Lie detectors being trialled in the UK Reply with quote

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8985812/Police-trialling-lie-detector-tests-in-Britain.html

Eek. Apparently the trial was successful on sex offenders in upping their offences.

Thin end of the wedge?
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ninja_butler
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 31 Dec 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh you'd better believe it.

They started by "trialling" the lie detectors on child sex offenders since nobody cares about them anyway, the trouble with that is that a lot of "low-level child sex-offenders" aren't actually sex offenders by the standards of normal people, which might sound like an outrageous thing to say unless you know that the victims include the teenage slappers who hang around your local off-license or supermarket asking for fags and booze and the offenders include 20-ish year-olds doing not much more than flirting with them. Sleazy yes, criminal no.

I know a fair amount about lie-detectors, and the main thing to know about them is that they DO NOT WORK. At all. Ever. You can detect lies by conventional methods but the machines and the straps and the wires and the electrodes are nothing but a stage prop.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 01 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninja_butler wrote:

I know a fair amount about lie-detectors, and the main thing to know about them is that they DO NOT WORK. At all. Ever. You can detect lies by conventional methods but the machines and the straps and the wires and the electrodes are nothing but a stage prop.


They aren't 100% accurate in any case. The news story doesn't mention that the lie detector results are not 100% of the evidence too.

I would be curious to see the laws regarding the use of them though. Did they HAVE to take the test, were they offered incentives if they took the test etc. etc.

Personally I see no reason why they didn't just "no comment" the whole test.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 03:45 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninja_butler wrote:
I know a fair amount about lie-detectors, and the main thing to know about them is that they DO NOT WORK. At all. Ever. You can detect lies by conventional methods but the machines and the straps and the wires and the electrodes are nothing but a stage prop.


I don't believe you.
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Mushroom
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PostPosted: 05:57 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Personally I see no reason why they didn't just "no comment" the whole test.


Kind of throws a spanner into there hole idea doesent it Laughing Laughing
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ninja_butler
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's quite a good article in Wikipedia about the history of the Lie Detector, although it incorrectly credits the American police officer John Larson as the inventor of the polygraph; it was actually invented by the Scottish doctor Dr James Mackenzie in 1906.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph

Most people are completely convinced that lie detectors work but there is no support for them in the scientific community except for a few rogue quacks employed by the industry.
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UrbanRacer
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Ham wrote:

Personally I see no reason why they didn't just "no comment" the whole test.


That was my thoughts too.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Ham wrote:
Personally I see no reason why they didn't just "no comment" the whole test.


Except in UK law IIRC silence and not answering questions can be used as an indicator of guilt. But if people actually did this the police would be barely be able to solve or pin crimes on anybody*

In that the smartest thing you can do is STFU if arrested ever. But the police goad people into talking/justifying their actions etc and do things to provoke a reaction. Which means people self incriminate and the police have you.

Then of course there are ways to make you talk if you STFU. Why do you think on average a person dies in police custody every couple of weeks?

*Apparently I read somewhere (will try to find the link) that it is possible to get people who did not commit a crime to admit to it 65% of the time.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatpies wrote:
Then of course there are ways to make you talk if you STFU. Why do you think on average a person dies in police custody every couple of weeks?


Quotas?
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninja_butler wrote:
Oh you'd better believe it.

They started by "trialling" the lie detectors on child sex offenders since nobody cares about them anyway, the trouble with that is that a lot of "low-level child sex-offenders" aren't actually sex offenders by the standards of normal people, which might sound like an outrageous thing to say unless you know that the victims include the teenage slappers who hang around your local off-license or supermarket asking for fags and booze and the offenders include 20-ish year-olds doing not much more than flirting with them. Sleazy yes, criminal no.

I know a fair amount about lie-detectors, and the main thing to know about them is that they DO NOT WORK. At all. Ever. You can detect lies by conventional methods but the machines and the straps and the wires and the electrodes are nothing but a stage prop.


I think you're fibbing mate...
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the papers and news I have heard about the lie detectors have all said that they are not 100% reliable and will not be used as evidence, however they have said that ins some people they give an indication.

I don't know if it is a myth or not, but apparently if you fart or clench your arse you can fool the system.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skudd wrote:
All the papers and news I have heard about the lie detectors have all said that they are not 100% reliable and will not be used as evidence, however they have said that ins some people they give an indication.

I don't know if it is a myth or not, but apparently if you fart or clench your arse you can fool the system.



Except we are creeping towards hard evidence that he dunit gov.

These things imply that he has a bad charactor and therefore must have done it. A couple of years ago for example when bad charactor references were allowed in court. Meaning that if the jury could not decide the CPS could swing the case by telling the jury of past misdeeds. Therefore abolishing the concept of justice is blind the reason why lady justice is blindfolded. And again adding to the less trial by hard facts more based on other things.

For example the media loves to hype oh he was a loner therefore he's abnormal. Say Skudd you complain about the exwife all the time. You must be abnormal and therefore guilty of something right?
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ninja_butler
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PostPosted: 18:34 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skudd wrote:
All the papers and news I have heard about the lie detectors have all said that they are not 100% reliable and will not be used as evidence, however they have said that ins some people they give an indication.

I don't know if it is a myth or not, but apparently if you fart or clench your arse you can fool the system.


They put pads on the seat of the chair to detect buttock clenching and straps around your chest to tell if you are trying to brace your muscles or hold your breath. It doesn't really make any difference though except that they can tell you are trying to cheat.

To "beat" a lie detector you don't have to do anything, all you do is sit there and lie like a rug.


Last edited by ninja_butler on 18:45 - 02 Jan 2012; edited 1 time in total
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JonB
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazza wrote:
fatpies wrote:
Then of course there are ways to make you talk if you STFU. Why do you think on average a person dies in police custody every couple of weeks?


Quotas?

+1

Evidence or STFU.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

First they came for the convicted kiddy fiddlers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a convicted kiddy fiddler.

Then they came for the convicted rapists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a convicted rapist.

Then they wired up the accused rapists
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Bear that one in mind. The Strident Feminazis are forever banging on about the appalling conviction rate in "rape" trials, because the Old White Man keeps insisting on a standard of "beyond reasonable doubt", and most trials are she-said vs he-said. Wouldn't the world be a better place if we could just lock Young White Men up based on them being nervous when accused by some vicious slag violated Sister-Goddess?
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 17:04 - 03 Jan 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatpies wrote:
Big_Ham wrote:
Personally I see no reason why they didn't just "no comment" the whole test.


Except in UK law IIRC silence and not answering questions can be used as an indicator of guilt. But if people actually did this the police would be barely be able to solve or pin crimes on anybody*



Not so sure of this, link if possible.

I shan't post the link again, but there's an interesting vid on youtube called "don't talk to the police". Well worth a watch, which is why I tend to be as non-commital as possible when dealing with them.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

unitynotsocrippledatmo wrote:

If we use lie detectors on suapects thn we should equally use them on witnesses


Interesting point. Thinking
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

unitynotsocrippledatmo wrote:
chaderton (manky manchester)police have no problem locking up people who have spinal injuries and incontinence in a cell for up to 18 hours,refusing them a drink or food and ignoring them when they ask to be taken to the toilet.,so long that they have to piss on the cell floor .if it happens to me again i'm going to do a shit mural!


IRA dirty protest for the win Thumbs Up
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 02 Jan 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThoughtControl wrote:


IRA Hunger strike for the win Thumbs Up


That showed them. Thumbs Up
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