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| T.C |
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 T.C World Chat Champion

Joined: 05 Nov 2003 Karma :   
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 Posted: 15:25 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: Overtaking when approaching a junction? Think twice |
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This case took place on the 12th of January, and is another example of why riders should avoid overtaking on the approach to a junction (even when that junction is on your left) and where there is a hatched area on the approach.
Rider was held to be 80% responsible for the cause of the crash.
VINCENT RINGE v EDEN SPRINGS (UK) LTD (2012)
[2012] EWHC 0014 (QB)
QBD (David Pittaway QC) 12/1/2012
PERSONAL INJURY - NEGLIGENCE - ROAD TRAFFIC
APPORTIONMENT : ARTICULATED VEHICLES : CONTRIBUTORY NEGLIGENCE : MOTORCYCLES : ROAD TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS : SPEEDING : COLLISION BETWEEN MOTORCYCLE AND VAN : VAN EMERGING ONTO MAIN CARRIAGEWAY WITHOUT SEEING MOTORCYCLE : LIABILITY OF BOTH DRIVERS
Although a van driver should not have emerged from a junction onto a main carriageway when he did not have a clear view of approaching traffic, a motorcyclist bore considerable responsibility for the resulting accident because he had been significantly exceeding the speed limit and had overtaken a lorry in an improper way immediately before the collision.
The court was required to determine liability in a claim for damages relating to personal injuries sustained by the claimant motorcyclist (R) in a road traffic accident involving a van driver (W) employed by the defendant company. R had been driving on a single carriageway with a 40 mph speed limit, on which the northbound and southbound carriageways were separated by a hatched area bordered by broken lines. R had overtaken an articulated lorry by driving in the hatched area. W had emerged from a junction onto the carriageway, intending to turn right. Once R had overtaken the lorry he saw W and began to brake, but he collided with W's offside door. R alleged that his speedometer had read 50 mph when he overtook the lorry. W claimed that the lorry had been approximately 60 metres away when he had emerged from the junction, and that he had thought that he had enough space to make his manoeuvre. Eyewitnesses gave evidence on R's speed prior to his braking. The court considered (i) W's liability; (ii) contributory negligence.
HELD: (1) W should have waited until he had a clear view of the road to his right before attempting to make his manoeuvre, Powell v Phillips (1972) 3 All ER 864 CA (Civ Div), Heaton v Herzog (2008) EWCA Civ 1636, (2009) RTR 30 and Farley v Buckley (2007) EWCA Civ 403, (2007) 104(21) LSG 27 considered. The size of the lorry was such that he did not have a clear view of approaching traffic, so was unable to see if any vehicle was overtaking the lorry (see paras 29, 32-35 of judgment). (2) R bore considerable responsibility for the accident: he was an experienced motorcyclist who was familiar with the road and with the type of traffic that usually travelled on it. R was aware that there were junctions and that the hatched area was not intended to be used as an overtaking lane. It was unnecessary for him to enter the hatched area to overtake, and it was not safe to do so. He breached the Highway Code when he overtook the lorry. Further, R was travelling at a speed significantly exceeding the speed limit. R's evidence that he had seen that he was travelling at 50 mph was not accepted, because he had shown afterwards that he had limited recollection of the accident. From the eyewitness evidence, it was probable that R was travelling at a speed of between 60 and 70 mph. Accordingly, contributory negligence was assessed as 80 per cent (paras 36-43).
Judgment for claimant in part ____________________ It is better to arrive 30 seconds late in this world, than 30 years early in the next |
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| Nick__C |
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 Nick__C World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Oct 2008 Karma :     
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 Posted: 15:40 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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Interesting
How much do you think the excess speed contributed to the % of blame the motorcyclist received and how much because of the inappropriate maneuver (overtaking using hatched area) ? ____________________ '02 GS 500. |
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| Jefr0 |
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 Jefr0 World Chat Champion

Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Karma :  
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 Posted: 15:42 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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That's a good case for some people to think, I see other riders doing it all the time and they are lucky to miss the third party pulling out from the left. Especially bad on Commerical Street in London for those that know, notorious for accidents there.
Lot's of things yelling out why he shouldn't have overtaken from what I can see on the case:
40mph limit, lorry doing 40mph, no need to overtake.
Lorry blocked view of sideroads from LHS so dangerous anyway.
He shouldnt have been in the position he was in but when overtaking, before going past the front of the vehicle you overtake you need to make sure the LHS is clear (look out for people pulling out)
I've learn't alot since commuting in to London, it's like the hazard perception test on steroids.
It's chaos everywhere, everyone in a rush and will pull out on you, will do the stupidiest thing and pedestrians will pop out of no where and cross the road looking the wrong way  ____________________ Rides: Honda XR 125 ('03) Honda CBR 600F ('91), Ducati 916 Biposto ('95) |
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| Paulington |
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 Paulington World Chat Champion

Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Karma :   
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 Posted: 15:46 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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It's common sense anyway, you should never be overtaking anywhere near a junction.
You shouldn't overtake at any point where there is elevated risk, for example by junctions, zebra crossings and various others. It's just not worth it as eventually you'll miss something and pay for it, likely by hitting it!
Overtaking is something to be done only when you have a full and clear view of the road ahead and that you know beyond all reasonable doubt that it is safe for you to overtake. Any doubt, no matter how small, and you shouldn't bother. ____________________ "Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul."
Current Vehicles: '89 Kawasaki KDX200, '99 Yamaha XV535, '00 Honda ST1100 Pan-European, '08 Suzuki GSX-R1000, '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GS4 2.0 TDCi, '15 BMW 1 Series 116d Sport Turbo.
CBT: 27/08/08. Theory: 04/09/09. Module 1: 16/09/09. Module 2: 01/10/09. |
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| T.C |
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 T.C World Chat Champion

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 Nick__C World Chat Champion
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| Villers |
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 Villers World Chat Champion

Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Karma :  
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 Posted: 17:00 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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How do they substatiate the witnesses accounts of the estimated speed of the motorcycle? Do they take into account the ignorance of the public towards bikes and their absolute inability to judge a bike as travelling at any speed below 'he musta been flyin'?
Junctions are dangerous, hopefuly anyone throwing a leg over the bike will know that. I do hear people say things like 'if he pulls out on me its his fault' thinking the fact someone else has made a mistake cures all ills though and the case of 80% blame on the biker is indicative of the view the so-called 'law' has on this.
 ____________________ RS125 > CBR6 > SV650S > ZX636R > GSX1300RZ Hayabusa > 06 RSVR Mille > SV1000S > Street Triple 765 RS |
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| Rogerborg |
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 Rogerborg nimbA

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 crackfinder Crazy Courier

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 crackfinder Crazy Courier

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 iooi Super Spammer

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 Mikey3 World Chat Champion

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| Pete. |
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 Pete. Super Spammer

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 Posted: 23:28 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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| mredhead wrote: | I'm in the middle of something very very similar.
However I was not speeding, witnesses have confirmed too,
The car began to turn into the left turn and I proceeded round it when a clio appeared from the side road.
The turning cars position and my position in the edge of my lane obstructed the clio's view of me, and assumed it was clear.
Apparently I touched the hatchings, I don't remember because I was so close to the line but may have been on it, but that is I believe all that they have to go by!
I hadn't long passed my test, so i learned early on DON'T overtake/pass at a junction.
Doesn't matter how right you are when you're on the floor.
Just want the claim to end now, its been going on for nearly a bloody year!
Wonder how it'll pan out..........
Mike |
I had an almost identical accident to that and got found not at fault. It WAS slightly different though in that a lorry I was following turned left lane 2, and as he cleared lane 2 (lane 1 is a bus lane) I went past him but a car emerged from the road he was turning into and drove into the side of me. That car had no way of seeing to his right because of the lorry he just counted on the fact that he could get well into the lane before a car could get past the lorry but didn't allow for a narrower bike. ____________________ a.k.a 'Geri'
132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good  |
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| Walloper |
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 Walloper Super Spammer

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 Posted: 23:52 - 23 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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Overtaking at or near junctions is attempted suicide.
I filter past motorway traffic when it's queuing/moving like treacle but I sober up near slip roads as it's where folk are looking/panicking for a last minute gap to get off and not interested in bikes (or considering much else found in the highway code).
There are advance warnings of junctions specifically to indicate to all road users that they are approaching a junction.
Too many folk ignore the signs, not simply because the signs become background I think it is more to do with the fact that they don't understand what the sign really means or worse that they don't care.
Now if the motorcylist was wearing a Hi-Vis Bib, was unable to modify his bike and etc. the accident probably would never have happened.  ____________________ W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair |
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 Mikey3 World Chat Champion

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 G The Voice of Reason
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 Mikey3 World Chat Champion

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| Lupine Lacuna |
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 Lupine Lacuna Scooby Slapper
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 Posted: 12:06 - 24 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I'm in the middle of something very very similar.
However I was not speeding, witnesses have confirmed too,
The car began to turn into the left turn and I proceeded round it when a clio appeared from the side road.
The turning cars position and my position in the edge of my lane obstructed the clio's view of me, and assumed it was clear.
Apparently I touched the hatchings, I don't remember because I was so close to the line but may have been on it, but that is I believe all that they have to go by!
I hadn't long passed my test, so i learned early on DON'T overtake/pass at a junction.
Doesn't matter how right you are when you're on the floor.
Just want the claim to end now, its been going on for nearly a bloody year!
Wonder how it'll pan out..........
Mike |
I am not experienced on a bike, but am by cycling. And in cars. What I normally do, as I have nearly been caught out so many times by cars going to turn in and then suddenly stopping for no reason is to give any vehicle that turns off your road plenty of space. This is particularly importantif you are hard to see - a lot of motorists use the opportunity when they wait at a t junction for a car to turn into their road as carte blanche that at the same time it is same for them to join, utilising the slowing traffic behind the car.
Therefore I would always make sure I am easily visible by all as I approach a junction and the way to do this is to keep well back from the turning car. |
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| Walloper |
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 Walloper Super Spammer

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 Mikey3 World Chat Champion

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| mistergixer |
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 mistergixer World Chat Champion

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 Mikey3 World Chat Champion

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| junglejim |
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| T.C |
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 T.C World Chat Champion

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 Posted: 16:46 - 24 Jan 2012 Post subject: |
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| junglejim wrote: | | Villers wrote: | How do they substatiate the witnesses accounts of the estimated speed of the motorcycle? Do they take into account the ignorance of the public towards bikes and their absolute inability to judge a bike as travelling at any speed below 'he musta been flyin'? |
It's a lot more high scientific than that.
The courts are fully aware of the innacuracies of witness statements, which is why they appoint accident investigators.
They will examine the wreckage and from that can quite accurately determin the speed of a vehicle.
Things like tyre tread marks (assuming the vehicle is not fitted with abs), can also be a very accurate indicator of the speed just prior to impact. |
Accident investigators (like me ) are usually only appointed in the most serious and high value cases, but even then it is not always possible to be scientifically specific or accurate because we are often instructed 2 or 3 years after the event by which time most of the evidence has been lost or destroyed, and as far as the actual scene is concerned, it is guaranteed that all the evidence will have been lost.
It is not the court that instruct experts like me, but the individuall law firms. Some instructions are given in conjunction with the third party, so in essence both parties accept the report regardless of whether it shows their client in a good light or not, although in the majority of cases, there will be an expert instructed on either one or both sides.
However, as officers of the court (which I am) I have to be unbiased, so even though I may be instructed for the claimant for example, if I find evidence against the claimant, then I have to raise those points, so that my credibiity is not brought into question, especially when it gets to court and I am subject to possible cross examination.
Hence the reason, I spend a lot of time going through statements, as knowledge of the dynamics of how crashes occur allow us to seperate the rubbish from the facts and working on the balance of probability, we are often able to provide a fair reconstruction of what actually happened.
This why my firm gets me to the scene in catastrophic and serious cases within a few days so that I can gather evidence still at the scene, examine vehicles before they are disposed of and obtain the relevant and appropriate evidence.
This also helps me advise on liability from a far stronger position than from looking at documents and statements several years old.
There are only a handull of law firms with their own in house investigation team as most rely on external experts to investigate years after the event, and because the costs tend to be so high, it is often not cost affective, bearing in mind that I will spend on average anything between 20 - 100 hours on an investigation, sometimes more depending on the circumstances.
In the original case, there was no Police AI, and so everyone was reliant on the witness evidence and it is unlikely that there will have been an external post crash expert investigation.
But that having been said, with experience, and with an understanding of the dynamics, it is sometimes possible to estimate an approximate speed at time of impact by using certain measurements and calculations, which I have had to do from time to time. ____________________ It is better to arrive 30 seconds late in this world, than 30 years early in the next |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 335 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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