About me

[RJSzynal]

Hi,
I've just joined as I'm planning on spending this year getting into biking.
I'm 24 and I'm a Cinema Projectionist (for now, we're all being made redundant) and I'm a massive petrolhead and know loads about cars yet I know almost nothing about bikes.
My parents are a Police officer and a Prison Officer so I've been brought up with the belief that the second I get on a bike I'll die!! It's time to change that.
I currently drive a Toyota Soarer 4.0 V8 (A.K.A. Lexus SC400) which gets 16 MPG so a bike will be a lot cheaper to run compared to that!
I've talked to the only biker I know to get advice and I've read tons of stuff online but there's still plenty to learn.
I'm currently sending off a D1 form to add provisional motorbike entitlement to my full UK license which I've held since 2005 (For some reason it wasn't on) and once I've got that I'll get on with a CBT and the theory test. Then I'll do a DAS course. My mate recommends attending the BMF Peterborough show in May as I'll learn loads more by seeing the bikes in person (I'm still unsure what type of bike I want) and he says there is a really good factory seconds stall there selling quality leathers and boots that just need a bit of stitching here and there for really cheap.
Right now I'm looking at GSF600s but it changes week to week, lol. My mate thinks I should be all right on a 600 as it has the power when I need it but it's also good at cruising, I have become very good at controlling the urge to drive fast as my car is quite powerful and also has the ability to go really fast if you can't fight the urge!

If anyone has any differing advice I'd love to hear it as it'll still be a few months before I'm riding, I have to wait for the funds!

Robert

[fatjames]

It's sounds like you're on the right path. Welcome to BCF mate. Only advice I have for you, start reading up on the highway code again!

FJ

[pinkyfloyd]

Going to the motorbike show will give you the chance to get on as many bikes you like the look of and try them out for comfort.

As for your parents views, tell them it will take about 20 seconds not the very second. It'll keep them happier.

DAS is the way to go but make sure you get your license before January as its going to become a pain in the arse after that.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.

[harscot]

Hello bud and a welcome from Wester Ross, ( where all the good roads are HeHe ) and ditto to the above comments
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First bike R reg Suzuki 125 GT twin in 1978:
2nd bike X reg Honda 650 Deauville in 2011:
Wish bike a Triumph Thunderbird: Dream bike Triumph Rocket........

[Rogerborg]

Hi Robert, sounds like a plan. You can't go far wrong with a Bandit, but they're quite heavy things and there are plenty of decent alternatives.

The KSI figures are bad, but you can lower your risk factors: be visible and treat every car waiting at a junction as though it's going to pull out on you, because sooner or later one of them will.

[Teflon-Mike]

Forget the idea that becouse you have had a car, quick or other-wise you might know anything.

You are a Learner-Rider. Aproach it with a completely open mind, as though you DONT know a thing.... and when you find out you do, use it to ask pertinant and sensible questions.

PRESUMPTION is the Mother of all Fuck Ups....

Yes, there is quite a lot of transferable experience from cars to bikes, but bikes are very much more demanding to ride than cars are to drive; veiw from the controls a lot different, AND we are HUGELY more vulnerable and at risk!

Trouble with teaching existing car drivers to ride a bike, is often that you tell them what to do, but in one ear, out the other, and they revert to 'Driving' as though they were in a car!

Silly one for you; toght car drivers on CBT, they have done everything they have been told, listened, carefully, asked sensible questions and I have had no qualms making the cut to take them out on the road after lunch for road training...

WHERE... fifteen yards from the gates of the college, at the first T-Junction.... they FALL OVER!

Why?

Well on the play-ground riding round cones, its all completely new, and unfamiliar, and they respond and do; just as if they were being given a ski-lesson, or tought to fly a hang-glider with absolutely no preconseptions, presumptions or previouse experience impinging on it....

But, ride off the play-ground, out the gate and faced with a white give way line, and a 'familiar' situation.... they do exactly what they have ALWAYS done in such a situation.....

Stop... sit still, like they would in a car, and forget to put thier bludy foot down to prop themselves up!

SERIOUSELY, it can be THAT bludy stoooopid!

Lots of other things car drivers do; they are far more 'mirror dependant' than we can be on bikes, and they tend NOT to use thier mirrors or do observations anywhere near as frequently as you need to on a bike.

This is another common previouse driver fault; they dont LOOK, they dont do the observations we need to on a bike, actually moving our heads and physically looking over our shoulders, and instead, automatically look for find and glance in the mirror, and no where near as often.

They also seem to ALWAYS forget to cancell thier indicators, becouse in cars auto-cancelling does it for them...

And very frustrating as an instructor riding along, following a student and the entire LESSON, you are constantly telling them the SAME THINGS over the radio.... "MOVE YOUR HEAD", "Cancel your Blinkers"... and they KNOW what they are doing 'wrong' and what they need to remember; its just that they are so USED to doing things the way they would in a car, instinct and engrained reactions take over.

'Doing DAS'.... this is a big problem. You get a couple of days on a bike, with a wally like me, nannying you around the roads, breathing false confidence into your ear constantly REMINDING you of these silly things you have forgotten, while you 'practice' for tests.

You are paying, a HUGE amount of money on a typical DAS course for NO MORE than the instructor being there, fullfilling the requirement to provide Radio Supervision to let you be on a 'big-bike; with L-Plates, and trying to drill these faults out of you by 'rote'.

Stuff thats actually 'useful', the real telling you what you need to do; one to one instruction.... you get very little of.

Training conventionally, on your own 125; you do CBT, get a bike, wobble about on it, try not to fall off, and learn pretty much by your own mistakes until you feel confident enough to take tests, is similarly frought; you learn only what DOESN'T work, and you dont get fed anything to help you do anything different, and possibly better, and its learning the hard and often painful way.

One of the best ways to learn is on your own 125, though; with weekly lessons.

Do CBT, go away, practice, come back. Get an hour or two of an instructor telling you what you are doing wrong, what you are doing right; giving you tips, and then sending you home, for a week to practice as MUCH as you like, on your own.

For the same number of paid for hours of training; FAR more of it is actually giving you USEFUL preparation to ride a bike; and you are NOT paying some-one to nanny you, and merely fullfil legal requirement to let you be on the road while you practice.

Intensive DAS courses, danger is, that so much information, provided in so short a space of time, you WONT get as 'much' useful know-how from it; and half of what you do get will be forgotten just as quick, and of what remains with so little real saddle time to give it meaning, it wont make much sense.

Consequently; a lot of the focus of training on an intensive DAS is on drillin out by 'rote' silly mistakes like observations & cancelling indicators, and providing 'Test-Tricks' to put on a performance for the examiner to get you a licence, RATHER than giving you good useful tools to be a decent, safe competant rider.

THEN leaves you out on your own for the very first time, WITHOUT that voice in your ear picking up on anything you might do wrong... on a pretty large and powerful machine that COULD get you into a lot of trouble very quickly.....

EITHER, thinking becouse you have done the course and passed the test, and 'know it all' until falling off proves otherwise... OR you are left suddenly bereft of support, with a jumble of confused ideas about what you were tought, and no guiding voice in your ear, thinking "Shit! WHAT DO I DO!"

THAT is the 'Danger' of DAS, or specifically intensive DAS courses.

DAS does NOT mean that you HAVE to do an intensive three, four or five day course.

ALL DAS is is the provisions in the test scheme for you to:-
1/ ride a 'big-bike' on L-s under radio supervision of qualified instructor.
2/ take the motorcycle tests on such a 'big-bike'
3/ and if passing tests be awarded full unrestricted A-Group licence without probationary restrictions of any sort.

Thats ALL it is; its NOT a course. I could ride my 750 to the test centre, with you on the pillion; slap L-Plates on the thing, and give you a letter saying that you had my permission to ride it; to show the examiner along with your cars insurance cert that says "And Any other Vehicle with owners Concent" so that you are insured to ride the thing, and you could Do your test on it and if you passed ride the fucker home!

You do NOT have to do a DAS course, you do NOT have to do an intensive DAS course.

IF you want a 'good' grounding for riding bikes; then I WOULD seriousely reccomend looking to get a 125 to use purely as a learning excersize.

Doing weekly lessons after CBT on your own 125, as said, you get BEST 'value' from the paid for instruction, and you can practice to your hearts content between times.

Riding unsupervised, you WONT get so ear-peace dependant, and will build confidence a LOT quicker.

AND you will, 'engraine' riding habbits to instinct the same as you have almost certainly done driving a car, and be FAR less likely to make or continue to make those silly car-driver reversions, like forgetting obs, or cancelling blinkers.

You'll also catch yourself out, doing 'life saver'; shoulder checks in teh car, and having any rear seat passengers wondering why you are turning around to look at them before changing lanes on the motorway..... but Hey, thats just bonus, you almost certainly take more from bike riding away that will make you a better car driver, IF only from the amount of observation you will do, and the more you will actually consider of what you see!

So, training on your own 125; costs are always uncertain, BUT training in this way; you will tend to get much better grounding and be much better prepared as a rider, and typically, six, eight, twelve weeks? all you ought to need to get to, and pass test standard and get a licence in your pocket for it.

You can then sell on the 125, and all in; costs of getting to that point; can be similar to doing an intensive DAS course. All circumstance dependant; but buying a bike and selling on, taking some depreciation and the running costs of that bike, including the insurance; hard to say whether overall it will be more or less expensive than doing a DAs straight off.

What is pretty sure is that for the same money you will get a much better preparation for post test riding; AND if you struggle, or dont pass tests straight off, it will almost certainly prove cheaper than DAS courses, where you pay a premium for a school booked test slot, both tests 'ahead booked' so the date and time of Mod 1 and Mod 2 fall in the course time; where if you fail Mod 1, you have a three day wait before you can re-apply for a new date, and will LOOSE the Mod 2 slot and the test fee.

Even just having to pay for repeat test fees; at around £125 a pair booked through the course, rather than individually for £15.50 for a Mod 1 Slot and £75 for a Mod 2, it can be expensive to fuck up. IF as many schools do, the tests are bundled in the course cost, and you have to pay for an entire new course, then it can get VERY fucking expensive....

So have a think, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm JUST explaining the options and telling you that you DO have options.

BTW... weekly training on a 125 would again NOT preclude you testing under DAS for an unrestricted licence.

As said, under DAS I could 2up you to test on my 750 and let you get on with it; no need for you to use a school.

Schools can be useful though, and if you train on a 125, If you want, nothing stopping you poay a few extra quid to do a DAS conversion lesson, for maybe an extra £20 to try out the big bike; then fork out maybe £70 for a 'Prep & Test' session; instructor supervising & coaching you on the trip to the test centre to use the school DAS bike for the test.

Doing the test on your OWN 125 though; has the advantage you may be more familiar and comfortable on it;l and it can save you pennies, and you dont need an instructor to nanny you to test centre.

Test on your own 125, you STILL get a full A-Group licence, and you DONT have to take any more tests after.

ONLY impediment with testing on a 125 is that doing so, you get a two year power probation. Means you can still ride any capacity bike you like, BUT it has to have an engine that makes no more than 33bhp or be restricted so it cant.

JUSt becouse you are over 21 DOES NOT mean you HAVE to do DAS, and the restricted licence is NOT a waste of time, or any less of a licence than what you get for doing DAS and DONT let any Riding school try and 'sell' you an expensive intensive DAS scheme on that kind of bull-shit!

33bhp is an awkward power limit; and does restrict the bikes you could jump straight onto that are naturally 33bhp complient.

But plenty of machines, are easily and cheaply restricted... and again DONT believe the bollox that you have to have a certificate of restriction and that they cost £200 and shit like that.

Ultimately; law merely says that it is up to YOU to ensure that the bike you ride is in accordance with your licence entitlement, and no more. How you do it is up to you.

What insurance companies may or may not ask for is entirely different matter; but again, there is no LEGAL obligation for you to have some kind of restriction certificate, and nothing stoppng you going to an insurance company that dont ask for one.

33bhp? Its not a lot, but its good enough to get a motorcycle up to over 100mph, and frequently do so faster than even pretty quick cars, thanks to the high power to weight ratio.

It IS enough to have a lot of fun with, and plenty for an early rider newby, it does NOT need to be a major impediment to enjoying your riding.

And after two years; restriction automatically drops off, and you can have any bike you like, just as if you had passed under DAS rules.

So, onto suitable bikes; for a newbie; either straight off DAS or stepping up from a 125, its NOT about size, its about 'Nature'.

As said, a 33bhp bike is good enough to break tripple figure speeds and get there plenty fast enough to scare most car drivers.

A 60bhp bike will normally break the two-mile a minute mark, and provide pretty lairy acceleration to it, compared to a car.

I have a CB750, its a 75bhp 'street-bike'. Its old, built in 1993, and its design is even older, having an engine taken from the 1984 CBx750 and DE-TUNED by 20bhp down to the 75bhp it has, and put in a chassis of even older 'twin-shock' technology, dating back to the 1960's & 70's. It is a LONG way from a cutting edge modern sports bike!

But, it will run very very eagerly to 125mph, and it will out accelerate all but the most spirited 'fast-cars' on its way there; and for me, and experienced rider, it still has more than enough capability to chuck around in the twisties and ride round numpties on the latest hot-snot sport-600's.

It is, by modern perceptions a 'boring' motorcyle, but I can tell you that even THAT is more than enough to be pretty bludy exiting!

And out the crate; they are quite a good 'newbie' bike. They are soft and forgiving, and give you a lot of feed-back about what you are doing, right OR wrong, that will help you develop your skills as a new rider, and in providing that feed-back and warning when you are doing stuff wrong, give you the 'clues' that will help you know WHEN to back off, and can keep you safe.

More focused, more competant bikes, will NOT give you the same sensations or feed-back, and will let you ride into danger not KNOWING how close to the edge you are.

Straight off DAS, a bike like the old CB750, reasonable enough starting point as any; and a bike you need NOT grow out of. I like mine. Its not THE most capable bike in the worlds, but in allround capability, to go have fun in the twisty lanes, tackle motorway blasts, load up with pillion or luggage and spend long hours in teh saddle; an awful lot of 'biking' for not a lot of money!

Mine cost me less than £500 in slightly shabby state; about a grand, to make it the way I like, not far off what I could have paid for something pretty tidy show room standard. And it costs me £80 a year to insure, against £120 a year for the CB125 or £150 for the DT125!

Bandit, is a similar bike; 150cc smaller and unfortunately in the popular and slightly more highly loaded 600 insurance group, and while not such a bad choice, personally I think that its slightly more highly tuned motor makes it a bit more tiring to ride and can urge a newbie to try too hard, wanting to get at the power and use the revs. But small gripe/

Plenty of other alternatives, including the JX600 Diversion; though TBH I would as easily reccomend a 'sensible DAS newbie the 900 version.

But I normally reccomend the commuter twins as the first big bike; whether on 33bhpo restricted licence, or straight off DAS, they are a very useful stepping stone.

Two cyclinders, they are, if needed more cheaply and easily restricted. Less refined twin pot motor tends to give more clues what its doing, and runs out of breath at the top end if you thrash it, where the fours will often rev eagerly to higher rmp, and encourage you to exploit the power they have up there.

Slighly less 'capable' than the 'fours' they offer a load more of this 'feed-back' and will generally offer a lot of learning for the small performance sacrifice, and give you a lot of opportunity to get into trouble... just not QUITE so blisteringly quick!

My VF1000, by modern standards, a bike that is not very powerful and is hugely over weight, would accelerate from 50 to 80 in less than two seconds. Damn thing could drop the quarter mile from a stand still, in under 11seconds with a terminal velocity of about 135, in the road tests. But in the intermediete roll ons, thiong could be lethal. Even with umpety years experience behind me, filtering onto motorway slips, or coming off roundabouts, that 'half second glance' over my shoulder to check gaps, and I coule be piking into the back of a truck doing 60mph, doing near twice that speed!

CB750, again, NOT a hugely powerful bike by modern standards, still runs similar risk, but, more likely to only be getting a tad close at about 90!

Commuter twin, A Suzuki GS500; Kawasaki ER5, or GPz500s; Honda CB500 or Suzuki SV650...

SV is a 75bhp bike, as stock; modern perception is its a bit 'wet' compared to 'real' sportsbikes, but lighter and more nimble than my 750,m still a bike that will see you touching silly speeds a tad TOO easily, at least in full power form. Others are all parallel twins. GPz500s is probably the most powerful and sporty of them, with about 60bhp, and a close second for performance to an SV. Others are all more comuter orientated, and offer a bit either side of 50bhp, as standard.

This is 'enough' to cut your teeth on, and fast enough to give you an idea of the things I'm talking about, without being SO far out of the realms of performance envelope of other traffic as it will give you a mind warp trying to get your head round it.

And a few months, a year, maybe even two, on a bike like that, would be very good 'grounding' to let you get on anything more 'adventurtouse' and not be to awed by it.

You would also be able to apreciate whetever you got after a lot more, from the comparison, as well as get more from it, from teh experience gained on the twin.

And if you decide NOT to get a 125 and do weekly training, and dive in with an intensive DAS course, (often schools just dont offer the courses to make anything else a viable option) I would THOROUGHLY reccomend a bike like this be the limit of your initial aspirations; and imedietly post DAS, even though you have a licence, use a commuter twin, as a first bike, to 'learn' on, and get what you have missed in early riding doing it on a 125, and perhaps back your early riding with some 'refresher' lessons, and after maybe an advanced course, before looking at the big-fours.

Point is; lots of options; dont dive in; dont presume on anything from driving a car let alone what as a car driver you percieve to be a 'fast' car, aproach it with an open, and pragmatic mind set, and try and make the options available work the BEST they can for you.

Oh, and as one last thought for you..... 'Fast' is all reletive. Fast cars, can be pretty thrilling and a lot of fun, and 170mph from an exec saloon can seem pretty excerssive and very very fast.

By comparison, the 150mph you see stated as the top speed of a modern sports 600, might not seem all that fast; while the mere 105mph listed as the maximum velocity of a humble commuter twin is likely to be scoffed at, as less than a diesel people mover....

Thing is; that people mover will take an age to get over 90. CB500 wont exactly romp away to its top speed, but it will still get there a damn site faster than you expect.

And unlike cars, where you dont OFTEN get the road room to use what performance they offer; too much traffic, roads too tight and twisty and narrow. Bike's width and ability to filter. Its manouverability, and its speed of response means that the performance is DOES have, is available, and CAN be exploited an AWFUL lot more often.

But the buck stops when it goes wrong; fast car has four fat tyres, abs, traction control, and will do a lot to save you from doing something too daft to begin with, and protect you pretty well curtecty of crunple zones and ipact protectiuon ssystems, when it doesn't.

Bikes DONT... it's YOU, out there, in the breeze in DIRECT contact with the enviroment...

If you really enjoy your fast car, think long about it, becouse an AWFUL lot of drivers, after even a merely moderately fast bike, suddenly realise that the car, REALLY isnt't all THAT exiting, and it can KILL thier enthusiasm and enjoyement of them!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[RJSzynal]

Wow! That's exactly the kind of knowledge that's incredibly useful to me right now. Thanks!
I think my plan has now changed to getting a 125 and doing weekly lessons, which I didn't even know was an option. My number one priority is safety so I want to learn how to SAFELY ride a bike rather than just getting my license as soon as possible.
I'm in no rush to jump straight into it and am patient enough to take my time and learn things properly. I see what you mean about having pre-learned car habits on the road and can imagine what you mean about slipping back into the wrong habits, I'll try limit it but I know it's a sub-concious thing and I'll find myself doing it anyway.

I know what you mean about keeping an open mind and not making assumptions, I've just started a course at college in light vehicle maintenance and repair as I'm being made redundant towards the end of this year so going back to education has taught me that even the things I thought I knew were sometimes wrong.

Thanks for all the information, I'll keep coming back and re-reading it over the coming months to try digest it all. I like that thought that it will even potentially improve my car driving, if I can improve my safety in any way then it's worth the money.

Thanks
Robert

P.S. I love this site already, it's so friendly!

[RJSzynal]

I've just dug out my paper counterpart and it seems the provisional entitlements are on that bit and the full entitlements on the card. I have provisional A, BE and GH which is motorcycle, trailer over 750kg and road rollers/tracked vehicles. The A began on my 17 birthday so apparently it was automatically added at the time and the other two began when I passed my full car test. So step one is completed a lot earlier than I expected, time to book a CBT then. Oh, and buy a theory test practice CD and highway code.

Robert

[Paris2]

Welcome!

There's tonnes of advice on here in the New Riders section, so have a read around. If your going for a 125cc bike first there is loads of advice on that too, take a look at the "125cc let's see your bikes" thread in the show and tell section - it probably has every one you can think of.
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Current Ride: Daytona 600

[pendulum]

[Scootaloo]

125 all the way!

for the first week I just rode up and down the road for an hour everyday, then when I was confident with the machine, did my CBT, then just spent every waking minute driving around.

my 125 journey to and fro work makes my day (when its dry) I'm hoping to pass my full licence this week and move on to bigger machines, but the knowledge I've gained from the 125 is invaluable to me, and there is still so much more to learn!

Slow and steady wins the race, and by win, I mean not getting killed.

Regards, Scootaloo
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(CBF125 - 09) (CBF125 - 11) (CB-1 - 89) (CBF500 - 06) (Push Bike) (CB-1 - 90) (XL125 - 01) (VF500 - 83) (GPZ500 - 94) (GPZ500 - 95) (GPZ500 - 87) (XV535 - 94) (XV535 - 94) (GPZ500 - 87)

[Kingstondavo]

Riding a 125 for a year or two before moving on to a "big bike" does not mean you are less likely to be in an accident, get killed, or anything else.

Big bikes are more stable and in my opinion easier to ride as a result, you just have to treat them with respect, sometimes the extra power and bigger brakes will get you out of trouble rather than into it.

Experience can be gained on any size bike, it's the attitude of the rider that is the cause of almost all accidents (except the unavoidables!).
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Current Ride - 2010 Hornet 600

[Kingstondavo]

[pendulum]

Thanks Kingstondavo. I have dug it out and under provisional entitlement it says A, BE, GH, so I think I am fine. One less worry. I'll stop derailing the thread now

[Teflon-Mike]

[Kingstondavo]

Probably should have been clearer, by a big bike I did mean a street/naked bike rather than a sports 600...

Totally agree with everything you say, bu I did 2 weeks commuting on a 125 and that was more than enough for me personally!
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Current Ride - 2010 Hornet 600

[Rogerborg]

[temeluchus]

I would suggest pottering around on a 125 for at least 6 months before confronting DAS, to let you get to grips with being a motorcyclist. It will let you pick up experience without being intimidated by a powerful bike.
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Some shite cruiser. Now with guns and FREEDOM!

[Kingstondavo]

I really don't get this "being intimidated by a big bike" stuff.

If you stepped straight on a sports 600 then yes, fair enough, but any of the commuter 500/600s (er-5/6, hornets, XJ6, 695/6s) are not intimidating in any way to ride. Yes they are bigger, but as a result they often feel more stable,

Yes if you jump straight on one, pin the throttle back and dump the clutch then you are going to feel a little intimidated, but as said, if you treat them with respect, they are no different than learning on a 125.

I agree with what mike said about maybe leaving a hole in your skill-set with regards to making the best use of power, balance etc, but learning on a big bike is not intimidating, dangerous, or more difficult.
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Current Ride - 2010 Hornet 600

[Alpha-9]

Mikes post's are always massive and insightful, if you have the stomach to read them, I did and it was worth it


Amusingly, but annoyingly, It took me a while to get into the habit of cancelling indicators, and I still forget OCCASSIONALLY, and I don't drive cars at all and yet... S'weird!

Personally i'd say riding on a 125 for a while in ordinary traffic is the best way to learn, if I had gone straight into lessons i'd be rubbish
I learn better on my own.

I found with the CBT i was making stupid mistakes that i'd never do now, because I couldn't focus, having a guy on radio tlaking to a few of you at once is distracting enough, let alone with the sound of wind and crap coming through and all the other things I was thinking about at the time like gears n shit

Comes naturally now, and its only been a week of commuting.

I'd definitely recommend doing your CBT on a geared bike, then riding around on a 125 to see if you enjoy it day to day (crawling through traffic on a bike isn't that fun, although way more fun than a car)
And so you can get used to it
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Fzr-600 1999

[Teflon-Mike]

[Kingstondavo]

Personally I found a YBR125 more unmanageable than my 696, the 125 is still the best part of 120Kg, compared to my bike which is ~160kg, and it has significantly less tyre on the road to balance on...

But yes, I see your point!
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Current Ride - 2010 Hornet 600

[Clanger]