Missing second gear - is it me or the bike.

[Andy_Pagin]

Ok, I've had the YBR a couple of weeks now (on a scooter for the past year), but having problems changing up to second.

Every now and then I get neutral instead of second. At first I assumed it was me getting used to the gears, now I'm not so sure, so this morning I made a point of 'exaggerating' the gear change, jamming the clutch into the grip, pushing the throttle off and toeing up good & hard, but still I occasionally miss second. Doesn't seem to matter how I was revving in first and it only does it occasionally. When it does happen I just push the gear lever up again and it always engages ok.

So, am I doing something wrong or should I get the gearbox checked out?
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Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[Pie-Roe]

Don't know what the linkage is like on a YBR but it's worth making sure the pinch on the gearbox splines is done up tightly, and theres no loose bolts in any of the linkage. Also, if you try and consciously push your heel down while changing up it'll help.

I had to do that on a bike I bought that had a broken hangar, never miss a gear now.
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[Tomzo47]

my old YBR did occasionally go into neutral rather than second, you just have to give it a good boot. I noticed mine did it more and more often until I changed the oil, when was the last oil change?
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Ybr 125 > Bandit 650SA > GSXR 600 > Triumph Sprint St1050 > CB1300 > Z1000SX + FJ1200 (written off) > VFR750 >FJ1200

[Ericck]

Hey could be the bike but IMHO more likely just needs getting used to, especially as it goes in fine after when you do miss it. When I went from the bandit to a cbr last year, I kept missing second gear when coming from first, for the first few weeks at least and then it was fine and I have rode many different bikes over many years

As you have already said, be a bit more deliberate about it.

Although I have known people to change the position of the gear lever to suit their big or small feet.
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Current Bike: 2004 Suzuki Bandit 600S
Previous Bikes: Yamaha FS1E, Mobylette Moped Thingy, Suzuki GS125, Kawasaki Zephyr 550, Kawasaki Zephyr 750, Kawasaki ER500, Suzuki Bandit 600, Honda CBR600F, Triumph Street Triple 675, Suzuki V Strom 650, Suzuki Bandit 1200, Suzuki SV650N, Honda CB500F.

[yen_powell]

Too much play in the clutch cable makes this happen. Play increases as the engine heats up and the cable expands. Too much slop and changing up to second is a bit hit and miss.
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[Alpha-9]

YBR has always been a bit funny about neutral for me too, but not to that extent.

Yen_powell seems to know what he's talking about

And Ericck he already said he's tried exaggerating the gear changes and really booting it up but it's still the same.

How about changing up without the clutch? I'm sure it wont do the gearbox any favours but...debug

Err, try what the guys above said oil!
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Fzr-600 1999

[Kal]

Sometimes it just happens and you lern hw to ride around it.

Worth checking the oil though. If its done more than 20K or the oil isn't a lovely see through consistancy then you may just need an oil change.
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1984 GB250 Clubman,1983 CB250N Superdream, 1999 GPZ500S

[P.]

Tried 1>2nd without the clutch?

[Teflon-Mike]

Seem to recall you are a high-mile tiddler..... but then, tiddlers live hard lives.

Yes, often change from 1st to 2nd is a little more nadgery on many gear-boxes, but its also the one most made, so where when you strip an engine you see most 'wear' on the shift pawl, so they can get less precice with wear and tear.

BUT, not helping it will be drive line snatch, low gears theres a lot of 'pitch' between chifts as you roll off and back on again, and the amount of reduction in the gearbox means that there is a lot more 'movement' needed to see the load taken off the cogs and for them to actually 'un-mesh'.

Feature of bike engines, unlike cars, is that the engagement is often on 'Dogs' rather than the teeth of the gears.

In a car gearbox, you usually slide teh actual cogs aloing teh shaft to 'mesh' with each other.

Say you have 36 teeth on a cog, it only has to rotate 10 degrees to 'mesh' with its partner, so +/- 5 degrees and it will slot in... and its helped by cones, that get the two gears spinning at the same speed before hand, so the cog only has to be shifted 5 degrees max one way or other to slide in...

On a BIKE gear-box, you have what are called Dog-Clutches between the cogs. The cogs themselves are arranged so that they are in 'constant mesh' with thier partner, and can spin on the shaft, and rather than actually shift one gear onto mesh with another, you shift a 'boss' along the shaft that had 'dogs' of like casle battlement 'bumps' that slot into other bumps or holes in the side of the gear.

There might only be two, or four lumps between a boss and a cog, so instead of 36 possible engagement points, they only have tow, for or six, and the 'Dogs' have to rotate maybe +/- 22.5 degrees to find an engagement point.

Make sense? TL;DR... bike gear-boxes are more sensitive to being 'unloaded' and need more 'motion' in the shafts to swap gears!

So, first checks:

1/ Chain slack, & condition.

If you have too much 'slack' in the chain, when you throttle off and de-clutch, you take load off the top run of the chain 'driving' the wheel, and ALL the slack has to be gathered up from the bottom run, before the back wheel starts spinning the shafts in the gear-box to help line up these 'dogs' as you shift.

If the chain is significantly worn, then it will magnify the 'slack' in the same way, as there is more free play in the points of each link.

Careful chain adjustment & maintenance can SERIOUSELY improve 'shift' precision.

2/ Cush-Drive Rubbers
Pretty sure your bike has conventional 'paddle' type cush drive. Rear wheel hub has a drum on the sprocket side, with four, five or possibly six radial webs between the axle boss and the drum. In these sut some rubber blocks, often bridged over the webbs, and slightly longer on the driven side. THEN you have a sprocket carrier, that has the sprocket on one side, and a boss in the middle for the axle, then on the inside, engaging in the wheel, a big 'lugg' or 'paddle' that sits between the rubber blocks. When the sprocket is turned by the chain, the paddles bear on the rubber blocks, which in turn bear on the webs in the drum, and transfer the force to turn the wheel.... BUT there is 'complience' in the blocks so that they can 'squash' and take up load progressively and take any harsh 'snatch' in the drive line.

With age, these blocks can go hard, and will tend to shrink slightly, and hard use can see them 'hammered' to that they are squashed even more, opening up a big gap for the paddle to flop around in.

Again, that gap has to be taken up as the wheel goes from being driven by the transmission under load, to driving the transmission during a gear-change, and if there is a lot of slop in the chush drive, it will make the change more sloppy and less precice.

Cheap trick I have utilised many many times is to 'shim' worn cush drives with a little aluminium plate, or some thick plastic cut from a cracked stak-a-box or old emulsion bucket, kind of thing.

"What you done to my Gear-Box" said J.M. when I did it to his CBR... Easy-Duz was similarly impressed by the difference!

Its a cheap trick, but amazing difference. Long term 'proper' fix is new cush-drive rubbers, which aren't ALL that expensive, but a bit of old plastic is a good get-you-by improvised repair until they arrive!

Otherwise.... SMOOTH SHIFTING, lightweights need more gear changing, and clumsy newby changes cause lots of pitching and diving and wobbling, learning to ride smoothly is key, and as you do, changes will improve...

But WHILE you are mastering this.... that chain and cush drive will be getting hammered..... but so too will the front fork oil and rear dampers.... soaking up the 'lurch'.

Dampers are often sealed for life, and if not completely shot, probably not a lot you can do about them.... but front fork oil DONT last for ever, and always worth changing about once a year along with brake fluid.

Maybe using slightly heavier fork oil could be an idea, but NEW fork oil will offer more damping effect than old sheared to shit, emulsified by condensation old oil, and again, take out some of the load changes as you shift.

Other maintenence: clutch cable, the clutch, the dogs inside the box, and any 'links' between shift lever and selector shaft, engine oil.

A new clutch cable is always a good thing to have; old ones you are often using the first bit of lever travel to take up the strain on the cable, and that can give an aplication 'lag' that is almost un-notioceable until you remove it, fitting a new cable.

Shift lever. lot of commuters have the shift lever direct on the selector shaft, which is as 'direct' as it can be. But more and more often they are 'remote' and connected by a ball-joint linkage.

Wear in the remove pivot for teh shift lever makes the change imprecice, then any slop on the linkage between shift lever and selector shaft.

A new lever & links is often a great investment, though cleaning, oiling and adjusting can make a big difference.

And ACTUALLY adjusting the lever possition to the most comfortable 'rest' possition can be a big boon. Have you ever adjusted the lever angle to suit your 'seat'?

Shifting the lever down a notch, so you dont have to lift your foot as much can make a REALLY big difference.

Lifting your toe is the more 'unnatural' action, and shift from 1st to 2nd often takes a tad more travel, and JUST getting that bit more movement from less toe angle can make a very big difference.

Then you are down to correct clutch adjustment, and oil in the gear-box. Not a lot you can do about wear on the selector pawl or dogs, withgout stripping the engine down, and unless its an ex school CBT bike, its not USUAL to see severe wear of damage on these parts unless the bike is REALLY abused.

SO.... bit of maintenance, bit of adjustment. bit of practice.... ought to sort itself out.
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[Andy_Pagin]

Thanks Tef,

I just had a look at the sprocket, if I twist it (with the back wheel held steady) I can move it back & forth a few degrees, does that sound right?

I'll check the chain slack tonight.

Btw, it's a 2008 year YBR with 8,800 miles on the clock.
____________________
They're coming to take me away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa, hey-hey,
the men in white coats are coming to take me away.
Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[Teflon-Mike]

[Pete.]

[Ericck]

[Andy_Pagin]

Presumably it's an "unbolt everything, refitting is the same procedure in reverse" job. I've downloaded the workshop manual and it looks easy enough.
____________________
They're coming to take me away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa, hey-hey,
the men in white coats are coming to take me away.
Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[FirebladeRuss]

Nice post on the gearing situation Mike!

The cush drive on my GZ was a bit clapped out, but nevertheless, a new chain and sprocket made the bike feel so much nicer.
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[Beelzebob]

[_Iain_]

As it goes, following this post and the following advice i proceeded to investigate further into the same issue with my bike.

I'd thought that it was fixed after tightening the gear lever up. but no, it still did it just less often.

Anyway, it was booked in with ANC motorcycles for a wheel bearing replacement. Tech took one look at the bike played around with it (and showed me half inch of play side to side in the back wheel, and a furthe half inch in the sprocket!) insisted it was a wheel bearing. Okey dokey - order the part in, £35 fitted.

Decided to check it out just in case, as i could swear there wasnt any play in the bearings when i'd originally stripped it. Lo and behold, all the bearings perfect. shitloads of play in the rubbers though.

Worth noting at this stage that the rubbers wear inwards aswell as forwards/backwards (cause of the non existant duff wheel bearing..) So, shimmed the rubbers up with chineese takeaway lids (the plastic tubs), two layers, flipped the rubbers upside down, and then five shims in the actual slots where the hub slots in. Bolted it all back together real tight to squish the rubbers in propperly.

Difference is unreal, feels stable and safe even in the wet, doesnt wobble whilst cornering, all the sprocket play is gone, all the rear wheel play is gone. Gearchange is smooth as you like and i've actually got to try to make it jolt forwards when rolling back on the throttle at low speed.

a VERY useful post thats saved me a significant chunk of money!
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Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340

[Teflon-Mike]

[Sload]

Nice Tef, they look the same principal as the coupling rubbers we fit at work between drives & boxes. Didnt know bikes had them
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Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

[lisayling]

good, very nice, thanks a lot, i think it should be adopted

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[_Iain_]

Ordered as soon as i got back in last night from test ride tef

£8 is still better than the £35 i would have had to pay for the wheel bearing that diddnt need doing, and then would still have to buy new rubbers anyway! Can think of many uses for that money...i.e my mod1 resit & a cafe stop off on the way up for cooked brekky...and still have enough to fill the bike up on the way back
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Please be aware that the above post may be full of complete nonsense.
Riding: '07 KTM Duke II, Baotian BT49QT-20 Driving: '88 Volvo 340

[Andy_Pagin]

I've ordered the new cush dampers, meanwhile I tightened the chain back to about 20mm free play from the 70MM slack it had

That alone has improved the ride no end, also I'm being a bit more aggressive with the gear stick, I reckon a lot of the 2nd gear misses were just me pussy footing and tapping into N
____________________
They're coming to take me away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa, hey-hey,
the men in white coats are coming to take me away.
Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[sheriffjonny]

[Alpha-9]

So after all that you were just being a pussy foot
Did the thrush not give it away?
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Fzr-600 1999

[tbourner]

I've been hitting neutral a lot as well, annoyingly I then stop and spend 2 mins going from 1st to 2nd and back cos I can't get it into neutral!!
Will have a check over it, planning an oil change if I get 30 mins without rain tomorrow!
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Looking for first big bike.