How do you slow down?

[tbourner]

Odd question. I seem to be using engine braking and not using the brakes. Like, at all! Same as I do in the car, ignoring emergency situations I see the junction early, lift off, down through the gears, usually pretty well timed so I can pull away again when the lights change without braking at all. This is wrong on a bike? For a start no-one behind knows I'm slowing down.
An instructor said you shouldn't use the gears so much, should use both brakes and the rear brake below about 10mph. He also said I shouldn't coast up to the stop and click down through all the gears in one go?
So which is it? I'm in 5th for example, see cars slowing ahead for a red light. Do I:
a) stay at 40 until the last moment then use the brakes, slamming through the gears one at a time really fast
b) stay at 40 until the last moment then use the brakes, click down through all the gears once stopped
c) brake early but stay in 5th, click down through all the gears once stopped
d) brake early and go down through the gears one at a time, end up stopped 30 feet from the junction
e) combination of the above - please explain

Answers on a postcard. Or in this thread, either way.
____________________
Trev, now a biker?
Looking for first big bike.

[snikks]

C
____________________
- CBT: 02/01/11 Theory: 26/04/11 Mod 1: 19/05/11 Mod 2: 19/08/11
- 2007 Honda XL125V Varadero (Sold), 1999 Yamaha FZS600 Fazer (Sold), 2001 CBR600F

[J.M.]

The problem with engine braking is that you're decreasing your speed, but with no visual indication (brake lights) that you're slowing down.

What you could do under engine-breaking is very lightly touch the front brake. On both the bikes that I've owned, the brake light engages (you can feel/hear a slight click) before the actual braking. So you could touch the front brake to turn on the brake light, without using the front brake, if you get me.

I don't know if there is a "correct" way to slow down, but you should always be in a suitable gear to ride away in. For me, this means changing down the gears whilst I'm slowing down. If you're doing 20mph, you don't want to be stuck in 5th gear when the situation suddenly changes and you need to accelerate out of danger.

[J.M.]

[Alpha-9]

Smoothly.

Use your brakes.

I decellerate down through the gears whilst using both brakes to control my speed, too much rear and changing down can cause some skiddery

Use your brakes madman!
____________________
Fzr-600 1999

[bikertomm]

If I was in 5th coming up red lights it would be - slight dab on the front brake to show brake lights combined with using the clutch and changing down through the gears I.e 4th, couple fo seconds, 3 rd, and so on until it feels right.

Just find something your comfortable with, there no right or wrong really but it's good to show brake lights if there are people behind you!


____________________
07' Honda Hornet now full powaah! My guide on performing an oil change!

[Rogerborg]

I essentially only use my brakes in order to turn the light on. I should probably just re-wire the pass-flash button.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Pie-Roe]

F)

Pull in the clutch and kick it down three gears and enjoy the sliding rear. (note, will destroy clutch, chain, sprockets, tyres and maybe some engine damage)

I do this all the time on bikes I don't care about, ie £300 quid shitters.
____________________
Previous: GSF600, FZR600 x2, ZXR750, XT600 Tenere, CB125, CZ125, ETZ 250, ER5, CCM R30, DRZ400, RF600x4, RF900x2, GS500, VTR1000F, 640 SMC, CB250 NIGHTHAWK, GT550x3, GPX750 TE610, CB500, X11x2, SV650, ZING 125, TL1000R,CB250 Superdream, CBR1100XX

[guile]

[Alpha-9]

[tbourner]

OK so it sounds like going down through the gears one at a time is the one. And brake gently but not too early (so not as early as I do in the car).
Essentially though you're changing when the bike needs to be in a lower gear rather than using the lower gear to slow you with engine braking? Makes sense, I just need to get out of how I drive!

What are the problems with changing down and gently letting out the clutch until the revs come up (not quick enough to lose it)? Is it clutch wear? Engine wear? What about 'blipping' to get the revs up as you do it (probably not a good idea on the test!)?
____________________
Trev, now a biker?
Looking for first big bike.

[Suntan Sid]

When you're "coasting" you are not in control of your bike.
However there is a difference between "coasting" and engine breaking.
I assume you're riding a 125, I haven't ridden one of those for a long time, so this may or may not help.

I would say that I tend to use engine braking more than my brakes.
If I want to go faster, I will use the brakes more, but normally, I'll still be passing cars just using engine braking.

IMO you're engine should always be in the correct rev range for your speed and gear.
Meaning, I like to keep the revs at the point where the power starts to come in.
So when slowing down, I would be matching my revs to the speed, which means going down through the gears.
If your going faster, it's essential you go down through the gears, whilst you're braking.
If I know for sure I will have to stop, I will stop in second gear. As soon as I've stopped I'll knock it into first so I'm ready to go.

Clutch in, coasting to a stop then going down 4 or 5 gears is NOT the way it should be done, AFAIC!
____________________
"Everybody needs money, that's why they call it money!"

[Sload]

Bit of both but brakes over engine, pads are cheap, engines not so.
____________________
Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx

[Sako]

i use a bit of both, but change gears as the speed slows - if i then see a clear space to pull out, or an obstacle etc i am in a position to use the correct gear to accelerate.

[tbourner]

OK I think I'm getting it. Use both in different amounts depending on how 'hard' I'm riding, but generally; be smooth, make sure people behind know I'm braking, and make sure I'm always in a gear in the right rev range.

Guy reckons I need 1 lesson (3 hours) of bike control on a 125, then 1 lesson of switchover to the 500, 1 lesson on MOD1 stuff, then 2 more lessons for the actual MOD1 and MOD2 bookings.
Sounds fair, if my only problems are bike control things like this braking and clutch control, hopefully once I understand that I should be cool on the roads. Gonna have to sell my bike to pay for it though.
____________________
Trev, now a biker?
Looking for first big bike.

[Suntan Sid]

[Matt B]

Your instructor will explain braking to you.

Gently squeeze the front then apply the rear just after - in the ratio of about 75:25 i.e. more front than rear.
Come down through the gears one at a time as you slow and only into 1st just as you stop.
Coasting is dangerous because you have no drive turning the rear wheel, this combined with the forward weight shift makes a rear lockup likely.
After your test, do what you like.
____________________
stinkwheel: He had an animated .gif of a cat performing fellatio. It's not socially acceptable. It can have real life adverse effects on other people.

[Llama-Farmer]

IAM says brakes to slow, gears to go, or something like that.

As long as you aren't decelerating sharply by engine braking, and there is enough space to the car behind that they won't ram you, I can't see a problem with engine braking.

What you do need to do is stay in a gear suitable for the speed though, you want to be able to roll on the throttle and accelerate away, whether that's because the lights change, or a car suddenly comes screaming up behind you or whatever.

Don't wanna be in 4th or 5th at 5-10mph

[Kingstondavo]

I get straight down the gears, would probably drop straight down to 2nd. Slipper Clutch FTW
____________________
Current Ride - 2010 Hornet 600

[Teflon-Mike]

What should you do.... when?

WHEN you are RIDING....
or
WHEN you are riding with an EXAMINER on your tail?

Real world; 'the book' describes a thing known affectionately as the Cardington-Clog-Dance....

- You should 'slow using the gears'....
- Arrive at 'stop' in 2nd, using the brakes for that 'controlled' stop.
- Assume 'Safety Position'.
- Rear & allround obs
- Reverse footing
- Select NEUTRAL
-Re-Assume Safety-Position

To move away:-
- From Safety position, perform all necessary obs.
- Reverse footing
- Select 1st gear
- Re-Assume Safety Position
- Perform all necessary obs to move away
- Move away

Of course, in the real world, going through all that chinanagins, by the time you had done obs. reverse footed, selected gear, re-assumed Safety-Pos, done more observations... the GAP you were hoping to pull into would have long gone!

This is where you have to remember the reface in 'The Book' that tells you that the 'tools' it provides are not a substitute for common sense!

As a demonstration of precision riding, however, it IS the 'Text-Book' procedure and IF you can do it, it probably is the best thing to do..... in MOST situations. Might be entirely unnecessary in many, but still good 'form', and a good habbit to try and have.

I probably knew a larger percentage of people that would do the CCD, mainly because I knew so many people Cardington Trained. But even so, those with some semblance of common sense left would admit that it was not always the most effective way to deal with junctions, and they did it, MAINLY because they could!

For YOU... worth taking note of, appreciating the semantics, then completely IGNORING! or at least for the most part.

Such precision technique and discipline WOULD be noted during an advanced course like RoSPA or IAM.... on DSA first Road-Test? It would mark you as a Smart-Arse, Book-Worm or a tear-away who has done some reading up, and is putting on a 'performance' of what they THINK the examiner wants to see......

So....

First of all WTF are you doing in 5th to begin with, in these situations?

5th gear, on a bike with 5 gears will be an OVERDRIVE gear to knock the revs back for more relaxed cruising. OR it will be your 'top' driving gear, if you have a 6-cog box.

If you are on a DAS bike, very easy to use the grunt to 'haul-tall' and use the higher gears rather than the revs, but you are probably NOT doing yourself any favours by doing so.

If its a DAS bike, it will be, as a minimum a 45bhp 500, capable of around 120mph or more. YOU DONT NEED TO USE FIFTH GEAR AT ALL on one, during road training or test!

If its a 125, very easy to keep up shifting to top, becouse they dont pull very well with 10 or 12bhp, and you run out of revs pretty quick.

But even so; 5th gear? Wont be helping you go faster in most cases than 4th, just knocking the revs back and making the bike labour.

It only has 10-12bhp, and unless you are reving thge nuts off it, you probably wont even be getting half of that, so on a 125, unless you are trying to keep up with traffic or 'prove' an overtake past a truck on a duel carriageway, and need to nudge 60, NO NEED TO USE 5th GEAR!

THRASH THE FUCKER!

Remember the 'nugget' you ought to have been told in CBT or early lesson;

"You should use as 'Responsive' a gear as possible, unless holding steady speed on fast open road"

Round town, sort of enviroment you are likely to be encountering queues and junctions, 20, 30, 40 MAYBE 50mph speed-limited areas, you REALLY ought not need to go higher than 3rd, EVEN on a 125, and even then, you would only want 4th for longer stretches of 50mph road.

THRASH THE FUCKER!

Very common car driver fault, not used to higher revving engines, particularly now so many modern cars are diesels with maybe 4,000rpm rev-limiters and low-blow turbo's bolstering the mid-range.

So it can be forgiven, if you BREAK the habbit, steel your nerves and.....

THRASH THE FUCKER!

Have I said that already?

OK.... queues & Junctions.....

Get used to thrashing the fucker..... and NOT being in SUCH a tall gear... half your problem is 'fixed'.... may only need ONE down-change to contend with these situations..... BUT...

1/ Are you OVER slowing approaching junctions or queues?

'Predictive' riding, is an advanced technique; riding to an event horizon, looking as far up the road as you can see, and not 'rushing' into it, but predicting events and ahead planning to accomodate them, which goes hand in hand with 'Conservation of Momentum', and holding a higher average speed, from using 'predictive' riding to avoid harsh breaking, or harsh acceleration, and 'maintaining' road-speed.

Its a very good, technique for ecconomy riding, saves a lot of fuel and wear and tear on the bike; but upping the pace, provides a much greater degree of confidence and margin of safety for 'swifter progress', and you can, point to point be faster than much more agressive riding styles. BUT I digress....

Its the SORT of thing that is natural in Advanced Riding, or Advanced Driving....

BUT.... on 'test' leaving larger gaps, in 'predictive' riding style, is more likely to be percieved as either lazy, sloppy, or simply over-cautiouse, and the cover-all 'FAIL' explanation will be 'Failing to make Progress'.

SO! Dont do it.

THRASH THE FUCKER..... a-n-d..... get assertive! Dont be a road-rager, BUT, be a bit of a road hog, and SHOW that you are putting in the effort, DONT put on a performance, and don't let them think you are pussy-footing it.

BIG worry I have for L-Platers, is that that red-L IS a red-rag to a bull-driver, and if you LEAVE those gaps, people WILL try and bully into them, and THAT in itself can defeat the advantage AND put you at risk in the mean-time.

I have been on LESSONS shepherding a pair of newbies, on frequent occasions, in a BIG YELLOW BIB with '"Instructor" in bog letters on the back..... do exactly that and try cutting my 'flock'....

So, while you have that L-Plate... work with it, BE a learner, dont get ahead of yourself.... once L comes off, THEN you can do it 'Better'... for now, FILL THE GAP, dont give the idiots opportunities.... My, or your instructors right BOOT wont always be there to make the fuckers back off!

2/ USE THE BRAKES

Instructors & Examiners WILL be watching for them, and not NECESSERILY the tail lamp.

When trailing a student I'm watching their right foot, and if I CAN their right hand..... and I am looking to see the brake light come on, THEN the back brake get used.

TIP: Book says USING BOTH BRAKES.... so USE THEM!

And make sure you do it BY THE BOOK, 75/25 front to back, front BEFORE back.

If they dont see you use the brakes, or use brakes appropriately they cant give you brownie points for it, or get a warm feeling that you know what you are doing!

AND, back to the caveot 'Fail' criteria of 'Not Making Progress'.... they can read you NOT using the brakes as being over-cautiouse or actually afraid of braking.

And they will NOT like you using only the back brake, particularly, but also only using the front, they will want to see GOOD two-brake 'habbits' so USE THEM and show them what they want to see, slowing later into those gaps, USING THE BRAKES.

3/ Once Stopped SAFETY POSITION

If you ent moving, Safety Poss. If you have done it right, worst case you are in 2nd gear, and COULD even on a 125, with some judiciouse clutch slip, get it moving again without reverse footing of CCDing.

But they WANT to see that Safety Position, and they DO NO, want to see you paddling or flapping legs around, or wobbling trying to crach gears JUST before you stop!

So take heed of Cardington Clog Dance, and if you CAN do it, make sure you can do it neatly, and quickly, or DONT bother.

BUT, make sure that you assume SAFETY POSSITION at a stop.

And before moving away from that stop, do 'some' of the CCD, reverse foot, get first, and get BACK in the Safety position, BEFORE doing your obs or moving off again.

BEFORE!

If you are reverse footing, looking over your shoulder, and pulling left foot up as you pull away, IT'S MESSY, its HORRIBLE, its unbalenced, and its GOING to get you marked down on SOMETHING!

So; best way of doing things:

1> 40 mph limit, @40, you should be in THIRD GEAR, not fifth
2> you see junction or queue; PLAN your manouver, & slowing for a 'hazard' is a manouver, BEFORE which we do a REAR OBSERVATION... not a shoulder check or life saver, REAR ovservation, so TURN YOUR HEAD.... (your a car driver, I BET you are bad at this, and use the mirrors!)
3> You have nice big gap, but dont over slow; roll off AFTER you have done a rear obs, and AFTER rolling off.. and you ought to have time to take a 'breath' between seeing Junct/Q, and Rear Obs, another before rolling off, and another before...
4> Touch, touch dont 'grip' front brake lever, JUST activate stop lamp switch
5>SHIFT right foot to cover brake pedal
Instructor/Examiner SEES 'Planning' in the rear observation, they see execution in the rolling off, THEN they see, brake lamp come on, from front brake lever, AND slightly after shift of boot over brake pedal to SUGGEST you are using brakes, and you are using them apropriately, front before back, AND are now, using ALL THREE brakes, engine braking, front brake AND rear brake, to bring the machine to a gentle 'controlled' halt or adjusted road speed for hazard.
6> depending on situation, a LIFE SAVER may be appropriate, especially IF during the slowing down manouver, you are co-incidentally changing lane, or lane position to suit junction / Q scenario
7> GEAR CHANGE to 2nd
Adjust throttle, to match engine and road speed, and you MAY 'emphasise' the single shift by lifting off brake, to turn off and back on the brake light to make the shift point, and again, show 'balenced' braking, as you adjust balence between engine braking and wheel-brakes.
8> Bring machine to controlled halt, and IMEDIETLY assume SAFETY POSITION
9> SHOULDER CHECK, reverse foot, select first gear for moving away; Keep it Clutch in, and back to SAFETY POSITION.

Moving away....

10> REAR OBSERVATION
11> Clutch out, & feet up, NICE and Neat and Tidy.

You MAY, if you are stationary for a 'prolonged' period be critasised for holding bike in gear on teh clutch, BUT provided you dont drop it, and ram the car in front... NOT a major; IF you are in Safety position, ought not launch it even if you do dum the clutch, back brake should be well on, and bike SHOULD stall.

BUT, Cardington Clog Dance and effecting Neutral between stop and move-away, IS good form, if you can do it naturally.

So,
1/ Dont use 5th! THRASH THE FUCKER
2/ FILL THE GAP - dont give the nadgers an inch of YOUR road room
3/ Be Assertive
4/ Use the Brakes, be SEEN to use the brakes
5/ SAFETY POSITION
6/ OBSERVATIONS

Keep it neat and tidy, and DONT over think or worry about it TOO MUCH.... its first test, elevated technique is NOT expected.

They JUST want to see a SAFE controlled ride. So WHOW them 'safe' safety position, SHOW them control, USE THE BRAKES
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[MG]

One of the longest I've seen...
____________________
'03 Honda Cityfly 125 > '02 Honda CB500S > '98 Honda CBR600F

[Sload]

[Teflon-Mike]

[MG]

[tbourner]