Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


How to justify buying a bike

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Benno
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:29 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: How to justify buying a bike Reply with quote

I can afford to own both a car (I already do actually) and a bike, for now at least. Obviously this is the best way to have it, but I'm still very aware of my funds, which are by no means endless! I live about 200 miles from where I go to uni and it is about the same cost to drive in my little nissan micra or take the train. All I use the micra for when at uni (hell, even when at home) is errands and social things (the latter is very infrequent because most socialising is done within walking distance of my residence).

I've always wanted a motorbike, but now that I'm closer to owning one than ever before I'm struggling to justify it since I don't commute further than a mile every day if at all! The closest thing to a commute I do is go to Oxford every Tuesday for training (in the TA), which means I have to go to the train station, a long walk, and I can't park my car there (but bikes park for free! Laughing )

So...at the moment the only financial saving I'm going to make from owning a bike is less fuel costs. Otherwise it's a big chunk out of my savings for...what? This is the part where I need convincing...

For one thing I need to learn if I'm to do the mongol rally on a bike next year I suppose Very Happy
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

J4mes
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:35 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude the only justification you need is "Because I want to"

Everything else is irrelevant.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:36 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Re: How to justify buying a bike Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
I live about 200 miles from where I go to uni


Snap!
I am inferring (possibly wrongly) from your post that like me, you're not a mature student.

My advice would be, either keep the car or get rid and get a bike.

What feels like money sitting there to spend right now, really isn't. When you finish University, you are going to want to move out. You are going to need a deposit on a flat, you're going to need to furnish said flat. You'll need to move all of your stuff over.

Maybe you won't be able to find work easily, you might have to relocate. Do it all again.

Maybe you'll go into the Army full time and this won't be as much of an issue, but at some point you'll retire and have to find something else, and I'd say it's far easier to save money you already have rather than saying "I'll start saving tomorrow", tomorrow never comes.

Sensible hat off. It's taken me the best part of two years justifying buying a bike again, that's only because I'm becoming fairly confident I'll be able to afford a house deposit when I finish education. Without that I wouldn't even be considering it, I don't want financial worries when I'm trying to start my career, it's hard enough trying to find employment without being skint at the same time.

Oh, forgot to mention - get the bike. Cars are boring and your friends probably ask you for lifts all the time. Bikes are exciting, cheaper on insurance and your friends won't ask you for lifts. Easy choice.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Benno
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:15 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing my housemate won't keep asking me for is for that spare fuel I keep in a jerrycan in the boot of my car and taking forever to get it back to me Mad

But yes, you're right, I'm not a mature student, I'm an undergrad (2nd year + gap yah). I was thinking that a possible alternative is to keep the car, but have it SORN'd (and sitting at home in Devon) while I am at uni. Only downside of this is trains are really, really boring to sit on for 4 hours at a time, and I can't stop at a roadside mcdonalds Laughing

I'm trying to live a more minimalist lifestyle now, having a bike would help fit in to that I suppose.

As for after uni...I have passed the first phase of army officer selection (AOSB, Briefing) with a cat 1, so all's good and I'm part way there, but of course there are still hurdles to getting in so I'm not taking it for granted. I'll probably rent for my first few years out of uni and get by on whatever I can (owning a bike instead of a car will probably help me cope financially in this situation).

Arrgh there's too much to think about, one minute I have a pro, next minute it gets overshadowed by another con... Confused
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

dextersaurus
World Chat Champion



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:21 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently have my 1.6 xsara vtr and my CBR600f. Travel to work and back, 40 mile round trip monday-friday.

I always had a bike through school and college/uni, used it to commute, then got my car.

The reason i have a bike? Because they are awesome, and i want one.

I say if you can afford the extra insurance and running costs, go for it.

I get more mpg out of the bike than i do out of the car!

Cheers

Dunc
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:29 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
Only downside of this is trains are really, really boring to sit on for 4 hours at a time


Indeed. Including the bus from my home to the train station, the wait for the train, the changes between trains, and the walk from the destination train station to my university accommodation - all in all, it's between 5-7 hours depending on how good the train timetables are that day. For a 200 mile journey. I could always work on the train - if I managed to get a seat. Nice one.

Quote:
I'm trying to live a more minimalist lifestyle now, having a bike would help fit in to that I suppose.


At the end of the day, if we're talking financially, what you're doing is putting off spending today to have more tomorrow, it's not gone forever.

I have enough family members who go through live spending every last penny to know I don't want that life, I think it's daft (no offence intended Mr D) to say you can "afford something" just because you have the money in bank or you can pay the monthly repayment. I could go on a trip around the world if I was content with the fact it'd use all of my savings and I'd be back to living on a council estate for years afterwards.

Though I'd question bikes being cheaper than cars. If you're young like me and the insurance costs £18 million per second on a car then sure, if you're late 20's or above then I'd see them coming out at about the same unless we're talking 125's.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

dextersaurus
World Chat Champion



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:58 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:

I have enough family members who go through live spending every last penny to know I don't want that life, I think it's daft (no offence intended Mr D)


Thumbs Up i work full time with a decent salary, so have plenty left over for savings, and everything that comes out for the month. I pay my insurance off for the whole year, so don't have to worry about that, but i see where you're coming from. I did that when i was a bit younger, and found that i was never able to afford things because i'd spent all my money on shit i didn't need. Laughing

Derivative wrote:

Though I'd question bikes being cheaper than cars. If you're young like me and the insurance costs £18 million per second on a car then sure, if you're late 20's or above then I'd see them coming out at about the same unless we're talking 125's.


I'm 20, and the insurance on the car is £2k for the year. bike is only £350. So there, i agree with you Thumbs Up

To answer the OP's question, since a car at my age is ridiculously expensive to run, a bike would be better, but 200 miles is a LONG way to go on a bike... if you're not as young and insurance isn't that much of a problem, go for a more comfortable/capable car, rather than a bike for that sort of distance.

Dunc
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:05 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Dunkable wrote:
Thumbs Up i work full time with a decent salary, so have plenty left over for savings, and everything that comes out for the month. I pay my insurance off for the whole year, so don't have to worry about that, but i see where you're coming from. I did that when i was a bit younger, and found that i was never able to afford things because i'd spent all my money on shit i didn't need. Laughing


Nice one.

Yeah, definitely enjoy yourself.

I dunno, I just sort of had a moment a few years ago when my mindset went from
"is the number in your bank account bigger than the number on the price tag"
to
"is this actually worth it, long term, are you going to get value out of it, is there a cheaper option".

It was like a light switch, and suddenly I now find myself reasonably secure and actually a lot happier than before. Something that I feel is good to share with others, at least I think it's better to get it earlier rather than when you're 60 and thinking "fuck, how do I pay the rent now I can't work any more".

It is a good point that if you're doing the journey regularly, like more than about twice a month, a car is probably going to make more sense for the comfort factor and really the running costs. For me I travel up and down maybe ten times a year max, so I'm going to go for the bike and see how that is.

Edit: I've been thinking restricted, not CBT and 125. 200 miles on a 125 more than a few times is going to be pretty dire, yeah I wouldn't recommend that.


Last edited by Derivative on 22:19 - 06 May 2012; edited 2 times in total
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Benno
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:05 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 200 miles would be done either by car or by train. The bike I would only use while at university during term time for errands, social use, and maybe driving to the TA centre on tuesdays (or at least to the station to get the train there). And for fun, because riding IS fun. Maybe I'd bring it home to Devon now and then. But not often, if at all. My parents are against me owning a bike and when I was 17 and first getting onto the road I wanted a bike and they really put their feet down about it.

Insurance for my car is £450 a year (3 years no claims, loyal to the same company, discount for insuring my parents on it also. TP fire & theft). For a bike it's slightly cheaper.

I'm trying to budget a maximum spend of £1500. I think that's a reasonable figure to include everything (CBT, purchase of a bike, tax, insurance) and although it takes a sizable chunk from my savings I still have a fair amount left.

But owning both a bike AND a car is what really makes this hard for me to justify to myself.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

GSTEEL32
Traffic Copper



Joined: 24 Feb 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:07 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Dunkable wrote:
Because they are awesome


..... does anyone use any other argument in justifying why they have a bike ...... ???? I thought this was the standard answer ......

Mr Dunkable wrote:

I get more mpg out of the bike than i do out of the car!


How the feck do you manage that ?, other than my 125's, I've never managed it....

I think I like the sound of over-run too much....

and using my exhausts as a supplementary horn while filtering.....

and setting off from traffic lights like I'm still on a two stroke....

oh, wait .....
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:15 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
I'm trying to budget a maximum spend of £1500. I think that's a reasonable figure to include everything (CBT, purchase of a bike, tax, insurance) and although it takes a sizable chunk from my savings I still have a fair amount left.


Gear and maintenance are missing there.

The gear will probably take some of the worry off your parents' minds (show them videos of motogp crashes and how riders just stand up or whatever, might be creative but at least they'll appreciate that you're thinking about it).

If you're comfortable with second hand kit then you should be able to do gear for £200-300.
Just make sure you get a new helmet.

Maintenance will depend on how much you ride it obviously (and how lucky you are with whatever you end up buying) but bikes do need a bit more than cars, I suppose if you just potter around the city it won't be as much of a problem.

Otherwise that sounds pretty much good, you should be able to get a decent japanese 125 for sub £1k.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

crackfinder
Crazy Courier



Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:21 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Re: How to justify buying a bike Reply with quote

Benno wrote:


I've always wanted a motorbike, but now that I'm closer to owning one than ever before I'm struggling to justify it

Otherwise it's a big chunk out of my savings for...what? This is the part where I need convincing...



Because it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on...!

I have a car for transporting the family around, getting the shopping, and getting to work when the weather is bad,

I have a bike for fun fun fun Mr. Green oh, and commuting when the weather is ok...which makes commuting fun too.


Get yourself a bike, you'll love it, passing my test and getting a bike is one of the best things i've done,
____________________
Yamaha FZS600 Fazer (gone but not forgotten). Current - Kawasaki ZX6R A1P
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Benno
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:25 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
Benno wrote:
I'm trying to budget a maximum spend of £1500. I think that's a reasonable figure to include everything (CBT, purchase of a bike, tax, insurance) and although it takes a sizable chunk from my savings I still have a fair amount left.


Gear and maintenance are missing there.

The gear will probably take some of the worry off your parents' minds (show them videos of motogp crashes and how riders just stand up or whatever, might be creative but at least they'll appreciate that you're thinking about it).

If you're comfortable with second hand kit then you should be able to do gear for £200-300.
Just make sure you get a new helmet.

Maintenance will depend on how much you ride it obviously but bikes do need a bit more than cars, I suppose if you just potter around the city it won't be as much of a problem.


Depending on how much I spend on the bike I might still be able to squeeze the kit into that total price.

It's just...I quite like the feeling of sitting on top of a pile of cash. I only have it because I was extraordinarily lucky - you know what, I'll be honest. I got assaulted outside a nightclub (I remember NOTHING), woke up in hospital and told the police I remembered nothing, a few days later got a call saying I was entitled to compensation, the guy had confessed, it was all on camera, and then 8 months later there's a few thousand in my bank from some lawyer who I spoke two twice on the phone for less than a minute. Obviously as a student this is a dream come true, until then my overdraft was my funding! Obviously I treated myself to a savings account.

So...since it's money that I wouldn't have if it hadn't been for this stroke of luck (getting my face smashed is lucky in this case)...I can at least be reckless with just under half/about a third of it. I still have enough for savings...right?

Right? Sad

I'm trying so hard to justify this to myself, I'm so used to being stingy!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Sako
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:57 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

just buy one, no need to justify it. Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

dextersaurus
World Chat Champion



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:58 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

GSTEEL32 wrote:
Mr Dunkable wrote:

I get more mpg out of the bike than i do out of the car!


How the feck do you manage that ?, other than my 125's, I've never managed it....

I think I like the sound of over-run too much....

and using my exhausts as a supplementary horn while filtering.....

and setting off from traffic lights like I'm still on a two stroke....

oh, wait .....


My CBR600f (f2) is completely standard other than the stubby can. last time i measured, it came out at 45mpg.

My 1.6 16v xsara VTR, with a de-cat pipe and cold air intake, managed 23.4mpg during the last fill-ups. When it had the stock exhaust and airbox, and all the other stupid things i've done to it, it was managing about the same as the CBR, but where's the fun in a stock car or bike?

Dunc
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:06 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you try throwing sums at the job, there is rarely ANY real justification to get a bike, OTHER than you want one!

If you are young, difference in price insuring a car to a bike can make it more favourable, if you are an old git like me, make it insignificant...

BUT, togging up, training up, getting over the thresholds JUST to get o the road, it ent cheap, and fuel savings, not necesserily that large as to see any 'real' return on the set up costs in a hurry.

If you NEED a Justification to do it THIS year.... its becouse IF you get a 125 and get a licence with it, then in two years you'll have fulkl unrestricted A group licence, without spening even MORE money on DAS training, or having to jump through hops of the iminent 'progressive testing' system, working your way up from a 125 only licence....

JUST DO IT if THAT is what you want!

Your a stuident and a Toy Squaddie.... lets be honest here. if you DONT you'll only waste the money on BEER and and rank kababs!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

Benno
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:18 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
If you try throwing sums at the job, there is rarely ANY real justification to get a bike, OTHER than you want one!

If you are young, difference in price insuring a car to a bike can make it more favourable, if you are an old git like me, make it insignificant...

BUT, togging up, training up, getting over the thresholds JUST to get o the road, it ent cheap, and fuel savings, not necesserily that large as to see any 'real' return on the set up costs in a hurry.

If you NEED a Justification to do it THIS year.... its becouse IF you get a 125 and get a licence with it, then in two years you'll have fulkl unrestricted A group licence, without spening even MORE money on DAS training, or having to jump through hops of the iminent 'progressive testing' system, working your way up from a 125 only licence....

JUST DO IT if THAT is what you want!

Your a stuident and a Toy Squaddie.... lets be honest here. if you DONT you'll only waste the money on BEER and and rank kababs!


Haha not heard the phrase "toy squaddie" before. I'm on my way into the RTR though if all goes well (chav cav/people's cavalry etc, I know)
I'm willing to bet there is some regulation or tradition/"done thing" that involves officers not being allowed to ride bikes, at least when they are near the troops. Some things about this army are a bit silly sometimes.

About getting the full licence...well I'm 21 already so the only reason not to get a full licence right away would be my budget (which is flexible anyway) and getting riding experience on a small bike. And not spending too much on fuel.

Alright. Even though it makes my life no more practical/frugal, in fact in some ways it has the opposite effect...I think I'm going to go through with this, at long last.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:24 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
It's just...I quite like the feeling of sitting on top of a pile of cash.


I also like sitting on top of a pile of cash, I live on tesco value and sainsbury's basics. Result, I probably spend a grand a year less on food than most of my uni mates.

Know what costs about a grand?
https://www.gpz500.co.uk/main/2/images/kawasaki_gpz_500s_1.jpg

Forgot about the 2013 changes, Tef has a good point there (as always). Read up on them: the gist of it is that if you want to ride a big bike at some point in the new future, you should try and get your license out of the way this year. The good thing about doing training is that it'll give you a good chance to see if biking is really for you - we're obviously the converted on this forum, so we'll all say it's amazing.

Quote:
I think I'm going to go through with this, at long last.

Thumbs Up

Where do you go to University btw, if you don't mind me asking? General area is fine.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:35 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
Benno wrote:
It's just...I quite like the feeling of sitting on top of a pile of cash.


I also like sitting on top of a pile of cash, I live on tesco value and sainsbury's basics. Result, I probably spend a grand a year less on food than most of my uni mates.

Know what costs about a grand?
https://www.gpz500.co.uk/main/2/images/kawasaki_gpz_500s_1.jpg


Shocked and students are moaning about loans and tuition fees! Shocked
{He ponders, wondering, whether after 19 years the SLC, might have the notion that if it's NOT been repaid by next year, because every year, its been differed because income below threshold, it probably never will be and decide to 'write it off'.....}

£100 a week, ASDA smart price; cuscus, mince & stew-packs, feeds TWO for a fortnight & the kids on alternate weekends!

Mind you... my student days, I annoyed house mates by NOT living of pizza & chips with a pint in the refect at lunch and a Maccies on the way home... The vegans had a 'salad-bar' upstairs, 'all you can load on a plate' for a quid... and thats where the GIRLS went.... fill up on pasta and healthy stuff, then Kwiksave on the way home and for the price of a MaccyD, an 8oz stake, potatoe, pot of coleslaw and for the price of a milkshake, bottle of cheap bulgarian red!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:41 - 06 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Shocked and students are moaning about loans and tuition fees! Shocked


Hey, I'm a big fan of student loans, but then again mine are the 'free' ones, 1.5% interest.

The poor buggers under the new system with 6% interest? Slightly troubled by the thought of what happens when people start to realise they're trapped.

Refectory stuff is interesting, ours is expensive nowadays as well. £50 a week if I ate there for every meal, £40 if I cut out breakfast. Nice food, but not that nice.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

kestrel
Nearly there...



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 07:02 - 07 May 2012    Post subject: Re: How to justify buying a bike Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
I can afford to own both a car (I already do actually) and a bike

I've always wanted a motorbike, but now that I'm closer to owning one than ever before I'm struggling to justify it


Benno.
You want a bike and can afford one, as a grown man you don't have to justify owning a bike to anyone.

There are many people who grow old never having done the things they wanted to in life because they couldn't 'justify' doing them.

Man up and buy a fucking bike!
____________________
Isle of Man.........Road Racing Capital Of The World
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

P.
Red Rocket



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Karma :

PostPosted: 07:22 - 07 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my first one because my brother said to.
Laughing

Then I just went on buying bikes and riding them.

You don't need to justify further than "that sounds like i'd enjoy it" You'll never know until you try AND if you buy a 125, you'll get your money back if you decide in a month that it isn't for you.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Polarbear
Super Spammer



Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 07:27 - 07 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do it now, while you can afford it. In a few years you might have a mortgage, a woman and even some rug rats. Your won't be doing it then I can assure you!
____________________
Triumph Trophy Launch Edition
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

cdlxxvi
Nearly there...



Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:01 - 07 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by cdlxxvi on 08:18 - 13 Jul 2020; edited 1 time in total
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Englishman
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:44 - 07 May 2012    Post subject: Re: How to justify buying a bike Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
This is the part where I need convincing...


Simply because "He who dies with the most stuff, wins".

Plus, they are amazing fun. And look cool. And are a skill to learn. Do your CBT and see if you don't finish that with a HUGE smile on your face.
____________________
INSTALLING SUMMER... ████████░░░░░░░░44% DONE. Installation failed.
404 error: Season not found.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 13 years, 232 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> New Bikers All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.11 Sec - Server Load: 0.42 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 147.52 Kb