Hi All, just looking for some advice

[bananafishbon...]

Hey everyone,

Im no doubt asking the same newbie questions you've all seen before, but Ive at least made the effort to read most of the FAQ posts and the top threads to try and educate myself before posting here!

Ill freely admit that I have little experience of the bike world; looking for a little help and guidance - everyones got to start somewhere!

I know I need to get a provisional license and take the CBT course.

But Im not looking to dive straight into a Full License, I think its better for me that I take my time on a restricted bike before I really think about going above 50 cc; is that a sensible idea or is that wasting time in the long run?

Im pretty confused on the classifications of the different license tiers; Ive heard age makes a difference, - my age is 23.

Ive read a few things about height not really being a factor with bikes, but Im only 5"2 and ive got fairly short legs haha, so please suggest any mopeds/bikes/equipment with that in mind.

One last question is, my price range for a learner moped/bike is around the £350/450 mark, am I deluded in thinking I'll get a decent runner for that price ?

[Derivative]

I would say that time on a smaller bike is useful, but 50cc might be pushing it a little. They really don't go much faster than a pedal cycle ridden flat out would.

£350-450 is just about doable but it is likely you will need to play with spanners a little and have some money set aside for maintenance.

Personally I'd save up the pennies a little more, if you don't know what you're doing it is likely to cost less in the long run to buy something for £700-800ish.

As a 23 year old you can currently obtain any class of license.
There are changes coming in January 2013, but they only affect those under 24 years of age, by then you'll either be 24 or not far off it so they shouldn't affect you either.

[bananafishbon...]

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it.

Ive been looking on ebay, and you're totally right, ideally I should be spending at least 700-800 to get something decent to begin with; although saying that Im not beyond a little tinkering here and there.

What cc would you say is suitable to begin with ?

Im a little edgy about having too much power in my hands haha, though Im hoping some hands on lessons will help me decide my 'novice' level.

[Derivative]

[bananafishbon...]

[U_W v2.0]

i think a 125 is the best size to be starting out on.

50cc's are just for those not old enough for a 125 and frankly are a waste of time and money
____________________
BCF's biggest cunt list: Cansa, Pits, Rob

[Derivative]

[WannaBeDude]

I know a man you could have a little chat with, to make things clearer, and to not get a put put.
____________________
Jogging on, destination living.

[HJM]

Just to echo whats been said, get a 125 over a 50, you will regret getting a 50cc!
____________________
"90% of all statistics are made up"

CBT-18/04/2013

[bananafishbon...]

Seeing as its general consensus a 50 cc isnt worth it, Ill definitely look into increasing my budget for a bigger bike!

I know helmets are down to personal fit and taste; but does anyone have a favourite / more reliable brand?

[Sako]

as above, stay away from a 50cc, takes about 15 minutes to get to 30mph, they are really just a foot in the door mode of transport, to allow 16 year olds to go out on the road.

in regards to helmets, you will find that people will favour the brand that fits them best, so there is little value in asking a general question regarding brand, as the best one for you is the one that fits the best.

[Rogerborg]

I would rather push a 125 than ride a 50.

With your stature, I'd suggest having a look at bikes like the SR125 and GN125.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[bananafishbon...]

Thanks for all the info and help.

I think I'm going to see if I can track down a decent Yamaha SR125.

[hedgehugger]

I loved my SR125, a very gentle bike but could make it go about 2 mile an hour faster if I laid down on the tank hehe
I am 5ft4 and could easily get feet on floor, flat foot and bended knee.

[pendulum]

Those SR125's can be had cheap sometimes, I had settled on a Honda CG125 or a Yamaha SR125 and in the end paid £470 for a CG125 which has been very reliable so far, but saw SR125's going for the same money or less. So you're not deluded, you can get a decent bike to pass your tests with for around the £450 mark, you just have to look hard

125cc all the way! On a 125cc they're not fast, but they are fast enough to handle all road types, whereas I would not want to use a National Speed Limit road on a 50cc
____________________
1998 CG125 (Sold) CB500 [+ Clio 172]
Usually_Wrong: I tend to fail more than pass. [Speaking about Theory Practice]
Usually_Wrong: im on unemployment at the moment

[Teflon-Mike]

OK, let me walk you through a 'model' learning process.

Getting the FULL licence should be the primary goal. Its not the be all and end all of the job, and far from end of learning process, but it's the first 'mile-stone'.

Motorcycles are THE most dangerouse form of motorised transport, unsupervised L-Platers the most likely to crash. CBT is not a 'Test' its 'Compulsary Basic Training' and it is VERY basic, many suggest that its ALL you need, but sorry, no, its JUST the first lesson.

To get a 'good' start; you want to do CBT, to learn the 'Basics' and validate your 'Learner-Licence'.

THEN, having got your own bike; you want to book lessons or a course of lessons, ideally weekly ones, about two hours each.

Lessons, check your riding, soon as you start, and ought to pick up any errors and correct them early on. So you learn to do the RIGHT stuff, RIGHT at the start.

- You dont 'develop' bad habbits
- You dont have to learn the hard way, falling off
- What you GET in lessons is ALL 'Learning'
- That 'Learning' comes in small easy to manage 'packages'
- You can PRACTICE what you learn in lessons to your hearts content BETWEEN lessons.
- Practice & Experience between lessons can be fed back IN to lessons to help inform learning & get you more from the training.

This traditional 'non-intensive' way of training, is still probably the BEST way to learn for MOST people. And schools that will operate this 'old-school' style training, will tend to be trying to train you to be a GOOD rider, not necessarily JUST to pass tests. Passing tests will come as a by-product of being a 'good-rider'.

Having your own 125 to do this on is key. Its what lets you ride between lessons and get practice and experience in.

Dont have to be fancy, its JUST a training tool. And once you have the Full-Licence, the 125 restriction falls off, and you can go look for a bigger bike, which in many cases need not be any more expensive. Frequently they are cheaper to buy, and provided you aren't daft, can be cheaper to insure.

BUT, first bike is important. YOU are a Learner. You wont have much expe3rience, you will be experiencing new sensations all the time, and when things dont feel 'right'.... having confidence in your bike, and the assurance that a wobbly or a weave or 'something' is down to YOU and YOU doing something wrong, not a defect in the machine, can make the learning process a HECK of a lot 'easier'; a LOT less frustrating, and certainly more enjoyable!

Last thing you really want as a Learner, wobbling around getting your balance, is some old 'nail' wobbling around on its own account on sloppy suspension bushes, or saggy suspension springs, worn out dampers, or anything.

And big 'problem' with second hand 'Learner-Legal' motorbikes...... they have been owned by other 'Learners'.

Learners, by defintion are learning about bikes; they don't usually look after their bikes very well.

Riding? they are going to make mistakes. Gear-Changes will be clumsy. They will crunch cogs. They will 'snatch' the transmission. They will be heavy handed on the brakes, and they are MORE than a little likely to fall off! And Learning, so this stuff a LOT.

Fork seals on Learner-Legals are a common 'fault', they 'go'. And if you think about it, easy to understand. Heavy handed on the brakes, they make the forks dive, and they do it an awful lot, and worse, do it for 'practice'. As an experienced rider, I might have to do an e-stop, oh.... once twice a ride YES thats how many idiots there are out there trying to KILL you.... but no... shouldn't have to brake THAT hard very often, but learners, they will be doing it, repeatedly getting the 'feel' for braking and practicing the e-stop manouver for tests. Its the nature of the beast. And we ought to anticipate it. Brakes themselves, transmission, engine, EVERYTHING on a learner bike will be worked 'hard'.

SO... we need to pay attention to 'Maintenance' and keep on top of all this 'wear and tear'

Back to Learners 'Learning'. If they are new to bikes; and we can reasonably accept they dont know how to ride very well, PROBABLY a pretty good bet that they aren't too familiar with how to MAINTAIN a bike either.

Two scenarios' first is they don't think their bike needs ANY maintenance... especially if the bike in question is the 'Legendary' Honda CG125.... which is renowned for being a 'Low-Maintenance' machine.... but that is NOT a 'NO' maintenance machine, and sold on the idea its 'Indestructible' many succumb to be the victims of their own legend, thrashed to bits by a succession of learners who REALLY don't think that the bike CAN be 'killed'.... They can... search 'Work-shop' its littered with examples of people that have learned that CG's MAY be 'bullet-proof', but at best they are only 'Learner-Resistant'!

Other end; you get owners who are more clued up that thier bikes need maintenence and are keen to get stuck in, and REALLY look after the bike. This is a GOOD attitude.... but, there is a tendency for Newbie-Mechanics to have slightly more enthusiasm than is err... healthy! And they dive in, and 'Do' and do it WRONG!

Bolts get over tightened because they dont know how tight they ought to be, and bits get stripped or broken through shear heavy-handedness. Chains get over tightened, and misaligned wearing out chains and wheel bearings.... list of 'newby' errors caused by thier nievity in mechanics is EVEN bigger than those that can be caused by nievity in their riding.

And 'Learner-Bikes', UNFORTUNATELY are NOT the most ROBUST vehicles to start with. Costs almost as much to make a 'little' 125 as a 'big' 500. Theres a bit more metal and maybe a few extra parts in the bigger bike, but for the most part that's neither here nor there, cost in manufacturing a machine is in the time and effort it takes to make and assemble the bits, and there's virtually as much in a 125 as a 500, so they cost almost as much to make; BUT, in the show-room, people will pay a lot more for that bit extra of a big bike, than they will a little one.

So, from the very start, they TEND to be built down to a price, AND because of their low capacity engine and limited performance, they HAVE to be made lightweight and they have to be in a relatively high state of tune, to give them even the limited performance they have. NONE of which bode THAT well, for a long service life, BEFORE giving them to some-one who REALLY isn't that well versed in how to ride it OR look after it.

So, older, cheaper the bike you go looking at...... more generally 'abused' it is likely to be, and the less 'nice' a learning platform it is likely to prove.

If you can afford it, a BRAND NEW reputable brand Learner-Legal, something like a Yamaha YBR125, or Honda CBF125, or Suzuki EN125..... BRILLIANT.

They cost about £2500, in the dealers show room, and they have NEVER been abused by ANY former Learners. You cant get 'better' wheels under your bum to learn on.

But they are 'expensive'. And BIG chunk of that expense is that a year on, when you have done learning on it, it's resale value will be probably 1/3 LESS than dealer sticker price.

A YBR that was £2500 in the dealers show room this time last year, with possibly less than 3000miles on the oddometer, no crash damage, and very little sign of wear and tear or abuse, PROBABLY go in Bike-Trader with an £1800 asking price. Thats £700 for a year of learning, JUST in depreciation.

In bigger 'Bag' though; buying brand new; you might get importer discounted finance, and get that extended to cover a complete 'package' of bike related paranafanalia; helmet, riding wear; maybe some accessories like top box & rack; probably your CBT course, maybe some further training; possibly your first years insurance, AND your warranty. And LOOKING at such 'packages', they CAN prove to be very 'useful', if not 'BEST' value, can be reasonable value for money, IF you cam make the package work for you, but they WILL be expensive.

Looking second hand then?

Buying privately, we are looking at bikes and bikes alone, and have to add helmet, riding gear, insurance, CBT and training on after.

£1800 for a 3000mile One year old Yamaha YBR, abused and not THAT much by just one Newbie, and probably ONLY in thier riding, as under warranty any maintenence will probably have been done by a franchise dealer mechanic...... PRETTY good chance that its ALMOST as good as new, and £700 cheaper...... THAT could be damn good value. A year on, probably still worth, as much as £1500, so £300 cost of ownership....

And I say this LOUDLY....... look at that..... an ALMOST brand new Yamaha YBR125, to do your learning on ..... for £300

Yeah.... thats not what you have to find to get your bum in its saddle but THAT over the year is what it 'costs'.

Buy a twenty year old Honda CG125, for £500... and chances are, at the end of the year, you will have a bike that wont have worked very well, or all that often, and made learning 'easy', and probably wont be worth much more than £200 'Scrap' value by the time you re done. Give or take spending a bit of money on it to fix it up a bit and keep it going, chances are, cost of owning that bike a year, will NOT be 'as cheap' as the £300 a newer, hassle free, machine would.

Run down the pecking order, and I would avoid newer bikes at two years old, becouse of the dint that they dont have to have an MOT test until they are three. So, three year old First MOT fresh Yamaha YBR125? Spot on the money, THESE offer just about THE best optimised Value For Money Learner package.

Three Years old, First MOT passed, so that hurdle is out the weay and any neglect or abuse accured in 3-year MOT exemption period ought to have been sorted out and the bike good, and 'safe'. And they will go in the adds for aroun £1250 +/-£150.

Year on, and re-MOT'd you can ALMOST sell them for what you paid, and the cost of ownership, could be less than that £300 on a year old model. AND you haven't had to find AS much money to get it under your bum. YET, bike is new enough that it shouldn't have had TOO many numpty newbie owners and seen THAT much abuse, and SHOULD be a pretty good, confidence inspiring bike to learn on.

After that.... you buy older, you save on buy price, but chances are, what you save on purchase you will more than spend over on maintenence, and NOT have such a nice bike for your money.

This is the old irony that you have to SPEND money to SAVE money.

BUT, lets stick that to one side for now, becouse a bike is only ONE part of the 'Learner-Package'

You NEED:

1/ CBT Course - usually between £80 & £160 depending on school and whether you use your own bike.
2/ Hat & Gloves - Budget at LEAST £100 & buy both on fit. IF you have any change, treat it as 'bonus'
3/ Insurance - 23 years old, on 'sensible' bike? Depends on post-code, bike, and a hundred other factors. I would ESTIMATE something in the order of £300 for almost anything with wheels. You may get lucky, or could go 'bare bones' Third Party Only, and get it down, but more likely you'll pay more, so have contingency for it!
4/ TRAINING - Lessons tend to start at around £30 per hour. I would say about 15 hours is around what it takes to get well trained. Local volunteer school near me, offers Rider-Training course of 14 hours nominal, on your own bike for £125, which is less than £10 per hour. Others, can charge up to £1000 if you use thier bike. Answer is budget £300 and shop around, and if you find volunteer school with course like my local one for under £200 BOOK IT!
5/ TESTS - £121.50 if First time pass.
a) Theory/Hazard £31
b) Module 1 Practical £15.50
c) Module 2 Practical £75
Budget £200 for them, incase you fail any.
6/ SECURITY - Little bikes get nicked.
You WANT at minimum, a Disc-Lock, a chain & padlock and a cheap alarm. Cyclone C11 that is well recomended budget alarm, costs £25 delivered. Add £30 for decent'ish pad-lock and chain, maybe a ground anchor to tie it down at home, and £20 for a cheapie disc-lock... I reccomend teh alarmed ones so they tell you you have forgotten to remove it soon as you try moving the bike, BEFORE you engage first and it wips round and slams into the brake caliper!

THEN you have any other expenses; if you want dedicated riding kit etc. Accessories, tax, if needed, petrol, and any necessary repairs & maintenance along the way.

SO!

Ignoring the price of the bike.

CBT & Riding kit cant be avoided, and you are looking at around £300 JUST for that.
Insurance, again cant be avoided. Another £300 possibly more.

So £600 is needed JUST to get NEAR a motorbike, and ride it.

If you are going to do it. Training & Tests. £500, REALISTICALLY to get you doing this, doing it safely and get a licence.

Its a big chunk of money and one you can EASILY think to save by not getting trained.... BUT, long term, that ONE lesson that saves you having to learn by falling off can save the entire LOT in one go...

Trouble IS, we dont 'see' the £500 accident we never have becouse we got some lessons to avoid it.......

It IS worth it.

Security and some contingency for running costs? £200.

Ignoring training? Ignoring the bike, we are well past a grand to get NEAR a bike.....

So, if you are looking at 'realistic' prices, and giving yourself SOME chance of doing it properly, and NOT setting yourself up for hassle and frustration...

£1000 to get NEAR riding a bike on the road, £1500 to get yourself trained and tested, PLUS the bike..... Three year old Yamaha YBR?

Takes you to a realistic price to get over the threshold and 'in the game' of around £2500.

And THAT is being a bit cute on your spend and not chucking money at it willy-nilly.

To give some 'comfort' and some 'buffer' for error or contingency, £3000-£3500, would be a better 'notional' budget to get the job done,. and get you on the road, and through the learning process.

But, £2500, of WHICH less than half is the price of the bike, and that is for a bike that OUGHT to be pretty useful, and long term, 'least cost'.

IS it worth skimping on?

If you are looking for savings, looking at the bike, is only one place to do it, and looking right in the bargain basement at old sub £500 nails at best will only save you £500 or so of 'up-front' money, and are likely to cost you more in the long run, unless you are very lucky or very good with spanners.

Saving training? Personally I think its false ecconomy. Can be done, but again, will only save you £2-£300.

Not getting tests? Ultimately only save you £121.50, and if you dont get a licence at some point you will have to repeat CBT, which would cost you as much. So NO saving there NOT testing.

Insurance? bog all you can do about that, always a lottery.

Riding gear? Well, I have already put that pretty much as skinny as it can be!

DEPRESSING.... BUT..... these are the realities. And its NOT utterly un-do-able, but you DO have to be cute, and that addage of SPENDING money to SAVE money is never more true.

The 'savings' come AFTER when you are out of this learner market; have some kit and ALL you are looking at is bikes and insurance.

I'm looking for a new bike right now, and I'm looking to spend about £1500 on a 150mph 750, AND the insurance and THAT is all I need.... I already HAVE the licence, I already HAVE the hat, gloves and suit, I already HAVE the locks and chains.....

But you HAVE to get through this Learner-Threshold.

Once told by a wizened old biker, "Ah! Money! Few problems in life cant be solved by large applications of Cash! Means only REAL problem in life is getting your hands on it, innit?"
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[bananafishbon...]

Major thanks to Teflon-Mike for all the important information and the realistic guide prices on everything I could possibly have thought to ask.

I think that post alone is worth a huge sticky on the top of the boards!

After the CBT Id definitely planned on taking a long course of proper lessons; I was surprised to read that a lot of younger riders just took the CBT and started going completely solo. That seems crazy because of all the maneuvers and practice you need in a car, let alone on a bike.

Im 100% going to take your advice on getting a bike at least 3 years old after its first MOT, that makes the most sense for my budget and quality of the bike; but of course ideally I'd love a brand new bike not thrashed by another eager learner.

In order to get the best start from all the calculations for lessons / equipment needed, I think I'm going to have to delay taking the leap into learning until Ive got a bit more in the piggy bank.

No point doing it half arsed is there? But at least now Im 100% more enlightened on the subject.

I always knew the insurance was going to be a killer, I had hoped it would be a bit cheaper than that; but I wasnt fooled into thinking it would be.

It is rather intimidating to learn that even seasoned bikers have to make emergency stops fairly frequently during some routine trips.

Do you actively avoid busy traffic during rush hours / commuting hours because things get more dangerous ?

[Derivative]

[bananafishbon...]

[Teflon-Mike]

[ninja_butler]

Holy crap Teflon! That must be a record for your longest post yet! But you're right of course, after a few repairs and a pair of tyres and all that, an old cheap bike can become an expensive old bike.

[the_quick]

You need to write a book mike.

After reading some of your post, very often I find myself lost in them.
____________________
Bandit GSF600 '00

[bananafishbon...]