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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Statistics and insurance. Reply with quote
I've been running through a few quotes on insurance, so that I can write the quotes down and know what's cheaper/what's not without having to requote every single time.

I've found a few interesting points, a big one being age:

GPZ500 1987: £143 TPO
GPZ500 2004: £223 TPO

So, an older bike of the same model is far cheaper to insure. Of course, £80 a year would be gobbled up by maintenance most likely.

Where it gets curious is when comparing bikes across manufacturers (lack of data perhaps). CB500, ER-5, GPZ and GS500 all give the exact same quote for the same year. So it's not a power thing either (the ER-5 puts out 20% less BHP than the others).

Where it gets even better is when bikes differ significantly over models. A 1999 CBR600F costs me £400. A 2001 CBR600F costs me £1189. Very Happy

Food for thought I suppose. I suspect this will matter less than what's up for sale when you go to buy.
But having the data readily available makes it far easier to dismiss potential choices (that 2001 600F for example, ouch!).

And it has made me think a bit more about bikes I'd disregarded earlier. At £500 I'm not really thinking twice about getting a 600. At £300 it's looking a lot more reasonable, and sometimes that's the difference a few years makes on the same bike.
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Alpha-9
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
It'd be interesting to get a whole shit load of quotes and compare the data to try and work out exactly what they're basing it on, but I suppose there's far too many variables with location etc.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alpha-9 wrote:
It'd be interesting to get a whole shit load of quotes and compare the data to try and work out exactly what they're basing it on, but I suppose there's far too many variables with location etc.


Indeed. That's sort of what I'm trying to do, but for "me". More out of interest than any practical application, when it comes down to it the £100 difference in quotes will likely be wiped out by how much I manage to get the bike for.

But I do think you could break it down into categories: new rider, experienced rider, old timer just got into riding, etc.

Postcode likely just adds a percentage modifier or similar, it'd be too complicated (and there'd probably be too little data) to look at "new riders in Hull" as a distinguished group.
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moppy
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think if you avoid the bikes that fall into the typical first big bike category, you might be able to save some money too. Surely, typical first big bike = more new riders stepping up from 125 = more accidents = higher insurance?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, go buy a ZZR600 Laughing

Edited to make some sense.

Last edited by moppy on 20:02 - 21 May 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Re: Statistics and insurance. Reply with quote
Interesting stuff, although you probably shouldn't stare into the abyss for too long. Shocked

Derivative wrote:
GPZ500 1987: £143 TPO
GPZ500 2004: £223 TPO

Insurers seem to base risk on much the same criteria even for TPO. So lower market value, perhaps less nickable, probably less likely to be ridden. It is still a big difference though. Thinking


Derivative wrote:
CB500, ER-5, GPZ and GS500 all give the exact same quote for the same year. So it's not a power thing either (the ER-5 puts out 20% less BHP than the others).

Uh... the GS500 is really the slug of that group. A late model one isn't even strictly suitable for a DAS test, although that doesn't stop directgov using one as an example of a 35kW+ bike. Doh!

CB500 = 57hp
ER-5 = 51hp
GS500 = 46.5-52hp depending on year
GPZ500 = 59hp
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Re: Statistics and insurance. Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Insurers seem to base risk on much the same criteria even for TPO. So lower market value, perhaps less nickable, probably less likely to be ridden. It is still a big difference though. Thinking


Yes. There are a few other points I thought of:

Older bikes may be more ridden by enthusiasts - people who prefer to tinker more than ride. Classic car insurance is often cheaper, could be a similar phenomenon.

From the perspective of a profiteer - people who buy higher market value bikes have more money, but also, they've been exposed to a higher price already. Similar reasoning applies to expensive options like built in GPS when buying a new car. £300 for an extra seems cheaper when you've just plonked down £20k.

The final one I thought of is that older bikes may be used more by people who simply use them as 'tools' rather than weekend fun toys. Sure, a GS500 is hardly the typical Sunday bike but perhaps there's some sort of correlation between "shiny factor" and crashes.

All of the above could be false, I'm just guessing here. Insurance interests me - the best policy is not necessarily the cheapest, but the best value - i.e. you may be able to get the insurer to misprice risk. My gut tells me that £140 for a GPZ is not an accurate representation, especially given that it'll likely decrease year on year as I age, hopefully gain NCB, license held longer, etc.

Rogerborg wrote:
Uh... the GS500 is really the slug of that group.


Forgot to look up the GS. I just compared the CB, GPZ and ER-5. A mistake.

I'm probably going to spend a fair bit more time on this when I have chance. It's kind of interesting - I wouldn't completely rule out 'dartboard pricing', it does seem fairly unlikely that I'm likely to cause four or five times more damage on a 2001 CBR600F than a 2001 SV, for example.

Last edited by Derivative on 22:19 - 21 May 2012; edited 1 time in total
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MG
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Re: Statistics and insurance. Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:
it does seem fairly unlikely that I'm likely to cause four or five times more damage on a 2001 CBR600F than a 2001 SV, for example.


You could say the same thing about the £330 I pay for my bike and the £4,500 quote I got on my mums car Shocked 13 times more dangerous? Fuck off!
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Re: Statistics and insurance. Reply with quote
mikeyg143 wrote:
Derivative wrote:
it does seem fairly unlikely that I'm likely to cause four or five times more damage on a 2001 CBR600F than a 2001 SV, for example.


You could say the same thing about the £330 I pay for my bike and the £4,500 quote I got on my mums car Shocked 13 times more dangerous? Fuck off!


I think with cars it makes sense in a way because of the nature of third party cover.

If you hit a car with your bike, the inhabitants of the car will likely be fine, and at low speed the car is unlikely to be written off.

If you hit a car with a car, well, not so much.

Though, I do tend to think that premiums for young drivers over-represent the actual risk involved by a significant amount. I'm assuming that you're not getting a £4.5k quote as a 30-year old.

The lowest quote I've been able to get on any car is £3000 (no NCB, early 20s). I can get quotes on bikes for sub £100.
As far as I can tell, essentially what is happening is that insurers don't see young drivers as part of their target market, so they set artificially high prices in order to discourage people (if they simply refused, there might be some sort of regulation introduced).
I talked about this in another thread - £3000 gives me a 1 in 5 chance of totalling a brand new family car annually. (Ignoring medical costs, hard to quantify, they may make up the majority of the premium).
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MG
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed, and yes I'm 20, it's bullshit because I drive it occasionally as a named driver and as far as I know it costs pennies to add me to insurance.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
moppy wrote:
I think if you avoid the bikes that fall into the typical first big bike category, you might be able to save some money too. Surely, typical first big bike = more new riders stepping up from 125 = more accidents = higher insurance?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, go buy a ZZR600 Laughing


As with the other bikes I've used the oldest and newest model because it's too time consuming otherwise.

ZZR600 1990: £224 TPO
ZZR600 2012: £391 TPO

More expensive than a 1992 Diversion (£168) and a 1998 Deauville (£219). Though both of those bikes are far less powerful.

1999 SV is £339, 1998 Hornet is £280. 1992 CBR600F is £380.

So the ZZR gives good value compared to a 600F but isn't appreciably cheaper than the typical 'first big bikes'.
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MG
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mk1GSF wrote:
mikeyg143 wrote:
Agreed, and yes I'm 20, it's bullshit because I drive it occasionally as a named driver and as far as I know it costs pennies to add me to insurance.


Because you are not the main driver.


Well yes, but I'm emphasising how a quote of £4,500 is maximum bullshit.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Try with a little newer vs really new. A long while ago I found that insuring a new car with a high value (fully comp) was cheaper than the less powerful 7-10 year old (much cheaper) models. That was for a lotus and an imprezza.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 21 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
daemonoid wrote:
Try with a little newer vs really new. A long while ago I found that insuring a new car with a high value (fully comp) was cheaper than the less powerful 7-10 year old (much cheaper) models. That was for a lotus and an imprezza.


Probably something for when I have a bit more free time on my hands.
For now I'm only evaluating bikes that I'm likely to actually buy.

Just got £143.33 for a 1987 Transalp XL600.
A 1987 GPZ500 returns the same quote from the same insurer.

I reckon this insurer has 'groups' and then just scales them based on age.
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moppy
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PostPosted: 01:26 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is interesting, but old are you willing to go on bikes? Surely something like a 1987 Transalp (even if it is a Honda) may well end up costing you some dollah on maintenance and replacing consumables etc when you could have a (I hasten to say the word better but...) better, newer bike which costs say £100 more to insure?

I'm not coming from the angle of faster = better btw, I started on a 125 cruiser and chose my ZZR because of how comfortable it was, I'm no speed freak Laughing
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 01:40 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay, so I'm done playing with insurance comparison sites now. You'd think I didn't have exams to revise for. I've done all of the 500-600cc Japanese bikes I could find under ~£1500 on BikeTrader, excluding cruisers, off road machines, and supersport bikes (I did actually get quotes, they were just all £1000+).

All of the data I've collected is only strictly relevant for me (age 21, 1 year NCB, license gained 'today'). Though I hope it's useful in terms of the 'relative' insurance cost of each bike and to demonstrate that there aren't really that many hard and fast rules when it comes to insurance.

Annual premium, TPO, red bar shows 'variation' between old and new:
https://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/mredgey/ins-cost.png

Average annual premium expressed as 'pounds per bhp', which I use as a _very_ rudimentary estimate of value for money:
https://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/mredgey/ins-value.png

Raw data in case there's anyone that cares:
https://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/mredgey/ins-rawdata.png

Interestingly enough, the SV did come out absolute worst in terms of 'value for money' - it's the most expensive bike for how powerful it is. Of course, it's a massive simplification to use manufacturer quoted power figures.

I guess this does show the ZZR600 as being a pretty good 'first bike' if you want something that's cheap and fast.

moppy wrote:
This is interesting, but old are you willing to go on bikes? Surely something like a 1987 Transalp (even if it is a Honda) may well end up costing you some dollah on maintenance and . . .


Yeah - that's one of the reasons I've thought of it as not particularly helpful to know that older bikes are generally cheaper to insure. £100 is pretty easy to wipe out.

My main reason for doing the research was that beforehand, I'd assumed that TPO quotes for any "1992-2002" bike would be the same or very similar, regardless of which year.

And yeah, this has pretty much confirmed to me that if I want cheap and cheerful, a GPZ or CB is the way forward. The Deauville comes out well but for whatever reason I've forgotten to include it in the spreadsheet.

Last edited by Derivative on 17:02 - 22 May 2012; edited 2 times in total
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moppy
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PostPosted: 01:59 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
CB500 is a stunning little bike IMO, looks like a proper bike. I would also have a look at the Honda Bros 400 & Suzuki Goose if you are 33bhp restricted.

The Bros has a good reputation for reliability, looks absolutely lovely and is rather funky with the single sided swingarm. Goose is funkier still.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 02:04 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
moppy wrote:
CB500 is a stunning little bike IMO, looks like a proper bike. I would also have a look at the Honda Bros 400 & Suzuki Goose if you are 33bhp restricted.


I do like the look of the BROS but they're pretty hard to find, and I think I'd rather have a 500 as I might be travelling 2-up with luggage every now and then.

Should be restriction free if/when I pass.
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groovylee
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PostPosted: 04:31 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
insurance is a weird thing. i was thinking of selling my old e30 cabrio (i know it's a car Smile ) and buying something a bit crappy as a runaround now i have the bike. problem is the insurance quotes i got back for random cars:

original quote for beemer 320i cabrio - £270

nissan bluebird 1600 - £540

fiat cinquecento 900cc - £350

fiat 126 - £300

jaguar XJS 5.3l V12 - £290 Laughing

WTF???
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JoeDougieDoug...
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PostPosted: 08:22 - 22 May 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote
My insurance is weird - I've been running a few quotes through www.thebikeinsurer.co.uk recently and some of the results were:

£450 for a Ducati Monster 600 (2000)
£660 for a Suzuki GSXR K5 (2005)
£350 for a Kawasaki ER-5 (2005)
£450 for a Yamaha Diversion 600 (2010)
£1150 for a Suzuki Bandit 600 (2002)
£700 for a Honda Hornet 600 (1999)

and

wait for it...

£700 to KEEP my CBF 125. (Last years insurance was £550)...

DA FUQ?
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